Let's Talk ADS-B?

[glafaille]

Any interest in talking about ADS-B or has it already been talked to death?  I'm still seeing lots of mis-information around, or maybe it's me that doesn't understand it.  I do think I have a pretty good handle on it though.

[Oscar Avalle]

I know the issue has been discussed many times, but there are some operational aspects that are worth discussing. For example: what do you get with ADS B in? what do you get with ADS B out? Also, how do you know if your ADS is working well and if not what do you do? What equipment is out there, what has been our experience in using it, etc.

On a personal basis I had my GDL 88 installed in my M20C. The other day I asked the FAA if they were able to track my plane and to my surprise the answer was no, they had no record. But, Flightaware did. So what is going on?

Some issues to discuss...

[glafaille]

Oscar-

I'm no expert on ADS-B but have spent hours learning the basics of how it works.

ADS-B utilizes two bands, 978mhz and 1090mhz.  The 978mhz band is used for weather data and traffic information, the 1090mhz band is for traffic only.  After Jan 1 2020, the 1090mhz band is required for aircraft operating above 18,000, traffic operating below 18,000 can use either band.

ADS-B IN provides data to you over the 978mhz band IF you have an ADS-B receiver on the 978mhz band.  The 978mhz band is unique to the USA and is not available anywhere else.  This is the band the FAA uses to transmit weather and SOME BUT NOT ALL traffic information.  Weather is transmitted all the time, but traffic information is only transmitted to aircraft that have ADS-B out capability.  If your aircraft is near an aircraft that has ADS-B out, you may receive traffic information that you can use when it is transmitted to the other aircraft.  If your aircraft is not near an aircraft with ADS-B out, you will not get any traffic information.  Therefore the traffic you DO see is NOT all the traffic in the area and should not be relied upon.  The primary usfulness at this time is weather information.

 

ADS-B out gets you very little.  Strictly speaking OUT only reports your aircraft data to ATC, the IN part is the part that delivers data that you can actually use.  It's important to note that weather information is transmitted ONLY on the 978mhz band.  

 

Edited January 19, 2016 by glafaille

[LANCECASPER]

One other slight benefit often overlooked . . . ADS-B out also may get you seen by someone before they collide with you. (see and be seen)

If you spend the money to get ADS-B out spend a few hundred more and at least get weather and traffic on your phone or ipad. There's Stratus, GDL-39 or even Stratux.

Here's my setup:

ADS-B Out with Avidyne IFD540 and AXP340 ES Transponder

ADS-B In with Garmin GDL39 3D, traffic and weather displayed on Garmin 796, iPad Air2 and iPhone 6+

 

Edited January 19, 2016 by LANCECASPER

[gsxrpilot]

I'd add that my understanding is the 1090 mhz band is required most places outside the US.

Here is my setup:

ADSB Out
GPS: GNS 530W
Transponder: GTX 330ES

ADSB In
Traffic and Weather: Stratus2/ForeFlight/iPad Mini
Traffic Only: GNS 530W

I'm pretty happy with the whole setup.

[wishboneash]

I have ADSB-out on GTN-650/GDL-88 + KT76A txpdr

ADSB-in (Tfc and Wx) on GTN-650 from GDL-88 and GDL-39 feeding Garmin 696/iPad mini2

Without ADSB-out, you are likely to miss traffic where there are no other ADSB-out planes.

[glafaille]

One point of misunderstanding.

A GPS/WAAS navigation system is NOT required.  What IS required is a GPS/WAAS position source that will compute your aircraft position and then transmit the data along with your aircraft ID with the GPS OUT data.  

So why make the distinction?  

There are a few companies that are producing an "all in one" box that combines GPS/WAAS circuitry that uses the GPS DATA ONLY for the ADS-B out requirement.  The GPS/WAAS position data is NOT shared with other devices in your aircraft for navigation.  Some of these devices connect to your existing transponder with a "Y" so that the ADS-B data is transmitted out with your normal transponder data.  The only additional antenna is for the GPS in this case.  Some of these boxes work on the 978mhz band and some on the 1090mhz band.  Usually these boxes give you OUT only, so no weather.  They cost about $2000 plus install.  I have read the install is so simple that a visit to the radio shop is not required, an A&P can sign it off.

The folks that make the portable Stratus ADS-B receiver are bringing out a spiffy box which I think will be the best thing going.  It is a transponder with a built in GPS/WAAS and will therefore be a single box solution, again the position data is not shared with other navigation systems.  The transponder has many other features, the best in my opinion is the "Altitude Alert" feature.  Set your assigned altitude and you will receive an audible warning if you deviate more than 200 ft.  Great stuff for IFR flying.  I think that it costs about $3500 plus install.

 

[Oscar Avalle]

My set up is as follows:

GTN 750 and GTN 650 with a GDL 88 and conext system which ties into my mini ipad on which I am running garmin pilot. I get weather, traffic and I thought that I was also tied into the ADS B out system. My flights could even be followed on Flightaware with the remark ADS - B... Was I wrong! I sent an email to the FAA to check how my ADS B system was working. In the email that I sent to:

9-awa-afs-300-adsb-avionicscheck@faa.gov

http://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/

I included tailnumber and equipment. 

They came back to me in less than 24 hours telling me that I did not exist... (in the ADS B world at least).  I followed up with my avionics shop and it seems that the right N number had been programmed into my GDL 88, but not the right ICAO hex number (also in the GDL configuration page). The number listed in my FAA registration as ICAO seems to be the right one. I had it typed in the configuration box... Now lets see, I plan on flying this Sunday and hopefully everything will work well.

In the meantime I got an email from another FAA contractor telling me that he would be ready to follow up on my situation if needed. 

I will report back once I have more news. Hope it helps.

 

[Yetti]

4 hours ago, glafaille said:

ADS-B out gets you very little.  Strictly speaking OUT only reports your aircraft data to ATC, the IN part is the part that delivers data that you can actually use.  It's important to note that weather information is transmitted ONLY on the 978mhz band.  

 

Depends.  978 UAT can do plane to plane and does not need ground station.   I have had the Stratux working on one of my flights over to Austin.  There are no ADSB ground stations in the middle of Texas so you have to be up at 4000 so.  

 

I had my shadow catch up with with me on both androids with Stratux as the ADSB in.   This is just me sqwacking 1200.  And no ADSB out.  So the ground station was picking up my transponder and rebroadcasting my position.  There is a status web page in Stratux that I just found so that will help with the diagnostics.  (towers and what is being received) 

[cnoe]

Your coverage should be much better than that in central Texas. Admittedly there is less tower density in that area but you should still have decent coverage down to 2,000 agl or lower. Using an external antenna (but still inside the plane) on my Stratus I can't remember the last time I didn't have 3-5 towers locked in at normal cruising altitudes throughout Texas.

I've been ADS-B compliant for 24 months now with both 978 and 1090 traffic displayed on an iPad. If it squawks a transponder code it should be on my screen. Until I saw everything on the screen that's out there I was clueless about much of it. Routinely flying in congested areas I am a big supporter.

Here is a link (http://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/adsb/coverageMap/) to the latest coverage map (from October 2015) along with a recent screenshot of a trip past DFW showing how many planes share the airspace.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ArtVandelay]

Maybe he meant southwest Texas. I've been there and can confirm missing coverage.

[mike_elliott]

My ADS-B setup is

L3 Lynx

1090 ES Out, Mode C out

ADS-B wx in, Traffic In

GNS430W

Lightning in, Traffic In,

Aspen PFD 1000

ADS- B Traffic

ADS-B Wx

Lightning

Synthetic Vision

IPAD mini (wingx and FlyQ)

ADS- B Traffic

ADS-B Wx

Synthetic Vision

Advantages- heterogeneous systems that play nice with each other, allowing me to take advantage of best in class products vs settling for proprietary offerings at higher costs, compliance with 2020 (as it currently spec'd), Flight above FL18, compliance outside the US, lower sub rates.

Disadvantages- xfeed of flight plan via IPAD not yet available without popping for a Garmin flightstream and using foreflight. L3, got your ears on??? Wish the Aspen SV was superlarge like the Real pricey G1000 SV setups are, but beats the heck out of what I see on my KI256

This is not an endorsement or pitch for anyone's product, but a simple recap of what worked for me using the minimum upfront and ongoing costs to obtain the maximum capabilities. Freeflight couldn't provide a 1090 box that would make it all happen, KT74 was a choice, but lacked the wifi piece needed to speak to the IPAD, etc. Your existing systems can dictate a lot of your ADS-B selection parameters. The advantages of ADS-B in are nice, and as pointed out earlier, being seen is a big part of this equation. A shame the system has been so constructed to get the deliverables reliably you have to put out

 

[1964-M20E]

As soon as the shop calls me to bring in the plane I will have the Avidyne IFD540 and the APX322 remote mounted transponder for ADSB-out.  I have the sky radar for ADSB-in on my Ifly 720 for traffic and WX.

[flyboy0681]

17 hours ago, Oscar Avalle said:

My set up is as follows:

GTN 750 and GTN 650 with a GDL 88 and conext system which ties into my mini ipad on which I am running garmin pilot. I get weather, traffic and I thought that I was also tied into the ADS B out system. My flights could even be followed on Flightaware with the remark ADS - B... Was I wrong! I sent an email to the FAA to check how my ADS B system was working. In the email that I sent to:

 

I will report back once I have more news. Hope it helps.

 

Same setup, GTN 750 with GDL88. The FAA reported that the signal was received and that no errors were encountered.

 

[jonhop]

Interesting brief about hacking ADS-B at the Defcon conference... Jump to 11:37 to skip an ATC history brief. Jump to 18:21 to skip a brief on ADS-B out and in and start of the hacking ADS-B portion.  

 

 

[Cruiser]

14 hours ago, cnoe said:

Your coverage should be much better than that in central Texas. Admittedly there is less tower density in that area but you should still have decent coverage down to 2,000 agl or lower. Using an external antenna (but still inside the plane) on my Stratus I can't remember the last time I didn't have 3-5 towers locked in at normal cruising altitudes throughout Texas.

I've been ADS-B compliant for 24 months now with both 978 and 1090 traffic displayed on an iPad. If it squawks a transponder code it should be on my screen. Until I saw everything on the screen that's out there I was clueless about much of it. Routinely flying in congested areas I am a big supporter.

Here is a link (http://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/adsb/coverageMap/) to the latest coverage map (from October 2015) along with a recent screenshot of a trip past DFW showing how many planes share the airspace.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That small central 10m ring around you position is about the limit to being able to visually spot another plane, in fact 5 miles is probably more realistic. While it is interesting to see all this traffic, being clueless to it's location (previous to ADS-B) really has no effect on the safety of your flight.

[peevee]

22 minutes ago, daver328 said:

ADS-B out Mandate:

Additional expenditure of our hard-earned

Dollars is placed on the backs of aircraft owners who are 

Saddled with costly equipment upgrades and confusing partially developed technology

-

Because the Government bureaucrats are drunk with power, short on knowledge and they don't really have to plan or stick to a budget ... like we do ...

if you have a problem with it you're welcome to stay outside adsb designated airspace.

Edited January 20, 2016 by peevee

[Marauder]

Interesting brief about hacking ADS-B at the Defcon conference... Jump to 11:37 to skip an ATC history brief. Jump to 18:21 to skip a brief on ADS-B out and in and start of the hacking ADS-B portion.  

 

 

I watched the entire video. Interesting stuff. Looks like the video was produced in 2012. Wonder if any security measures were introduced because of it. Was interesting to hear that he commented that the FAA was represented in the room.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[cnoe]

14 hours ago, cnoe said: Your coverage should be much better than that in central Texas. Admittedly there is less tower density in that area but you should still have decent coverage down to 2,000 agl or lower. Using an external antenna (but still inside the plane) on my Stratus I can't remember the last time I didn't have 3-5 towers locked in at normal cruising altitudes throughout Texas.

I've been ADS-B compliant for 24 months now with both 978 and 1090 traffic displayed on an iPad. If it squawks a transponder code it should be on my screen. Until I saw everything on the screen that's out there I was clueless about much of it. Routinely flying in congested areas I am a big supporter.

Here is a link (http://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/adsb/coverageMap/) to the latest coverage map (from October 2015) along with a recent screenshot of a trip past DFW showing how many planes share the airspace.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That small central 10m ring around you position is about the limit to being able to visually spot another plane, in fact 5 miles is probably more realistic. While it is interesting to see all this traffic, being clueless to it's location (previous to ADS- really has no effect on the safety of your flight.

I agree and will go further in stating that in 2 years of looking at traffic targets on-screen that 95%+ of GA aircraft are invisible to the eye at 5 miles. At 2 miles I can usually locate MOST of them if I know where to look. But without the traffic display I'd still miss most at 2 miles with a visual scan only.

When VFR I often make a subtle course adjustment based on the traffic display well before a potential conflict arises. That's the beauty of ADS-B traffic; the ability to avoid surprises. I cruise at 150 kts and spotting an incoming plane of similar capabilities 2 miles out only gives us 12 seconds to spot each other and take evasive action if on a true collision course.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Bennett]

I too have the GTN 750, GTN 650, GDL 88 setup, and Garmin Flight Steam 210 to ForeFlight. I had the FAA test done, and they reported perfect reception. Great combination of Garmin gear that works seamlessly.

[Marauder]

Has anyone kept up with the expansion of avionics coverage for the GDL-88? I know they were looking to include their own Capstone products to the list (MX and GMX series) which would lead to inclusion of other products like the Aspen Avionics units. Anyone hearing anything?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[HRM]

It all goes to mission, like anything else.

Missions are planned and they have budgets (yes, they do).

My mission is just be-bopping around the country and having the ability to enter any airspace that compliance will let me into.

I need minimal compliance; i.e., cheap.

I am looking at the Stratus ESG from Appareo with a Stratus receiver, ForeFlight and an iPad.

[Bob - S50]

I have to convince 3 partners to make changes.  I've concluded that the cheapest way for us to comply is to replace our KT76A transponder with a Trig TT31 and connect it to our GTN650, sell the KT76A while it still has some value, and use a portable ADS-B in (I already have the GDL39-3D).  The Trig should be about $2700 installed.  Sell the KT76A for $300?, net cost $2400.  Buy 3 more batteries so each partner has one ($300 total).  Total cost including the GDL about $3600.  That's only $900/partner.

If money was no object I'd get the Lynx NGT9000.  But at about $8500 installed, it will be a hard sell to the partners.

[HRM]

1 hour ago, Bob - S50 said:

If money was no object I'd get the Lynx NGT9000.  But at about $8500 installed, it will be a hard sell to the partners.

Well put. I was a bit outraged when L3 finally came out with their much ballyhooed Lynx system. affordable my a**.

[Marauder]

14 hours ago, Marauder said:

Has anyone kept up with the expansion of avionics coverage for the GDL-88? I know they were looking to include their own Capstone products to the list (MX and GMX series) which would lead to inclusion of other products like the Aspen Avionics units. Anyone hearing anything?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

To answer my own question. The much awaited GDL-88 for the Capstone products is still yet to be released. Still planned for "later this year".