Engine failure of sorts in my Bravo--need advice on what to do

[jclemens]

I'm thinking we could do the case change, reassemble with new bearings and overhaul the cylinders for about 25K.  Wouldn't be an "overhaul", just a repair, time since major would stay the same.  Bet it would fly for another 1000 hours though.

[Alan Fox]

On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 11:25 PM, Tony Armour said:

Please point out where I said the case is not repairable. I'll wait.

You or anyone is a moron if you would take THIS case, repair both halves instead of spending another $2,000 to $4,000 on a replacement. And again, like you want to put words in my mouth, I'm not necessarily proposing to buy new. You can read, right ?

If we do get to see the inside, it will be fun :-) And PLEASE pick your best guy so he can give a repair estimate. Since you have been "involved" (wow) in a teardown and and repair of AN engine I'm guessing you could even show Joey Cole and the actual mechanics in the Mooney Service Center a thing or two. On this particular case,  they are also full of shit, according to you.

Regarding the penis, just bought a new model a few weeks ago so we are good to go there. But it's my wife's, when you come down I'll ask her to take you for a ride and you can explain to her about her shiny new penis.

 

My wife doesn't have a penis..... Sorry for your luck...

[Bravoman]

6 hours ago, Shadrach said:

And how much does a "Frankenreman" cost?

About 64k. Nice thing about it is since this a niche engine which Lycoming only sells for the Bravo I understand you generally get pretty much a new engine since they don't have a lot of old parted out ones sitting around. Also, unlike say the version of the 540 that goes in a Cherokee six or Saratoga these engines have not been around for a long time comparatively speaking (the Bravo engine came a few years after Mooney introduced the TLS and was in response to problems with cylinder wear with the original TLS engine). Thinking about it I never see Bravos with over 2000 hrs total time and most of them have considerably less so anecdotally I don't think there are a lot of second and third run cores out there. Also all new accessories, turbo, waste gate ,  exhaust( which has a tendency to crack at joints with age on this set up), zero time log book, Herman of Zephyr engines kind input all adds up to my best option being a factory reman. Had this not have happened Zephyr would have been getting my engine for sure when it needed an overhaul.  BTW Zephyrs price not including case and unforeseen repairs/replacements is 54k, but did not include new exhaust etc. 

 

Regards, Frank

[Alan Fox]

After working on cars for almost 40 years , Before most engines went roller (early 80s) I remember cams being fairly common ,    Since then I have never had a roller tappet fail and damage a motor.....in fact the only lifter failures were noisy tappets , but they had no ill affects on the cams at all......  I have seen lots of valvetrain , cam lobe , lifter bucket  failures on non roller tappet engines.....

[mike_elliott]

On ‎1‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 6:20 PM, carl said:

 

Scott, centrilube, ney nozzles, pre oiler or all 3?

[Shadrach]

 

1 hour ago, Bravoman said:

About 64k. Nice thing about it is since this a niche engine which Lycoming only sells for the Bravo I understand you generally get pretty much a new engine since they don't have a lot of old parted out ones sitting around. Also, unlike say the version of the 540 that goes in a Cherokee six or Saratoga these engines have not been around for a long time comparatively speaking (the Bravo engine came a few years after Mooney introduced the TLS and was in response to problems with cylinder wear with the original TLS engine). Thinking about it I never see Bravos with over 2000 hrs total time and most of them have considerably less so anecdotally I don't think there are a lot of second and third run cores out there. Also all new accessories, turbo, waste gate ,  exhaust( which has a tendency to crack at joints with age on this set up), zero time log book, Herman of Zephyr engines kind input all adds up to my best option being a factory reman. Had this not have happened Zephyr would have been getting my engine for sure when it needed an overhaul.  BTW Zephyrs price not including case and unforeseen repairs/replacements is 54k, but did not include new exhaust etc. 

 

Regards, Frank

Frank, it sounds like you've done your homework. Being the type of engine it is, at 1150hrs, perhaps it was going to start giving you trouble anyway.  

Edited January 27, 2016 by Shadrach

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, jclemens said:

I'm thinking we could do the case change, reassemble with new bearings and overhaul the cylinders for about 25K.  Wouldn't be an "overhaul", just a repair, time since major would stay the same.  Bet it would fly for another 1000 hours though.

How much to just split the case and replace with an overhauled unit from Divco et. al.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Shadrach

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, Bravoman said:

About 64k. Nice thing about it is since this a niche engine which Lycoming only sells for the Bravo I understand you generally get pretty much a new engine since they don't have a lot of old parted out ones sitting around. Also, unlike say the version of the 540 that goes in a Cherokee six or Saratoga these engines have not been around for a long time comparatively speaking (the Bravo engine came a few years after Mooney introduced the TLS and was in response to problems with cylinder wear with the original TLS engine). Thinking about it I never see Bravos with over 2000 hrs total time and most of them have considerably less so anecdotally I don't think there are a lot of second and third run cores out there. Also all new accessories, turbo, waste gate ,  exhaust( which has a tendency to crack at joints with age on this set up), zero time log book, Herman of Zephyr engines kind input all adds up to my best option being a factory reman. Had this not have happened Zephyr would have been getting my engine for sure when it needed an overhaul.  BTW Zephyrs price not including case and unforeseen repairs/replacements is 54k, but did not include new exhaust etc. 

 

Regards, Frank

I don't blame you for going with a factory engine. Psychologically after having an engine failure and a very close call, it would be hard to put your life in the hands of that engine again, even though it had been overhauled. Factory option carries its own advantages, with all new accessories, exhaust, warranty through the manufacturer rather than just one shop, etc, etc. Plus you should be able to get back in the air a lot sooner. Keep us posted on the progress.

[jetdriven]

Yeah they sell your engine you're scared of to someone else who needs peace of mind and doesn't trust their engine.  Then they sell his to you. 

[Shadrach]

13 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

I don't blame you for going with a factory engine. Psychologically after having an engine failure and a very close call, it would be hard to put your life in the hands of that engine again, even though it had been overhauled. 

Intersting take,  I've had emotional attachments to machines, but never thought of mechanical things in an emotional way. That is to say, it would never occur to me to distrust a crank or cam because a case cracked. Especially given that any factory engine other than "new", typically come with a hodgepodge of returned and tagged components of unknown time in service.

[KSMooniac]

Scott, centrilube, ney nozzles, pre oiler or all 3?

I went with a centrilube cam mod for now. I have a preoiler too, but elected not to install it until after I install a turbo as I'm not sure it will fit together.

Another thing came to mind about the Bravo engine...the oil lines to the rocker boxes keep the valves MUCH cooler and lubricated. Anyone ever here of a sticky valve in a Bravo engine? Less gunk on the valve stems leads to less mechanical stress on the cam lobes.

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[jclemens]

22 hours ago, Shadrach said:

How much to just split the case and replace with an overhauled unit from Divco et. al.

Subtract about 7K for not doing the cylinders, however with the current times on them I wouldn't see that as really being an option.

[Guest]

On January 27, 2016 at 8:15 AM, Bravoman said:

About 64k. Nice thing about it is since this a niche engine which Lycoming only sells for the Bravo I understand you generally get pretty much a new engine since they don't have a lot of old parted out ones sitting around. Also, unlike say the version of the 540 that goes in a Cherokee six or Saratoga these engines have not been around for a long time comparatively speaking (the Bravo engine came a few years after Mooney introduced the TLS and was in response to problems with cylinder wear with the original TLS engine). Thinking about it I never see Bravos with over 2000 hrs total time and most of them have considerably less so anecdotally I don't think there are a lot of second and third run cores out there. Also all new accessories, turbo, waste gate ,  exhaust( which has a tendency to crack at joints with age on this set up), zero time log book, Herman of Zephyr engines kind input all adds up to my best option being a factory reman. Had this not have happened Zephyr would have been getting my engine for sure when it needed an overhaul.  BTW Zephyrs price not including case and unforeseen repairs/replacements is 54k, but did not include new exhaust etc. 

 

Regards, Frank

Not sure if it's even a possibility but, will the factory overhaul your engine, keeping your low time crank and rods and replace everything else including the case?  The major drawback would be delivery time.

Clarence

[M20F]

11 hours ago, jclemens said:

Subtract about 7K for not doing the cylinders, however with the current times on them I wouldn't see that as really being an option.

Would you have flown with Bravoman two months ago?  

[Bravoman]

15 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Not sure if it's even a possibility but, will the factory overhaul your engine, keeping your low time crank and rods and replace everything else including the case?  The major drawback would be delivery time.

Clarence

I did not look at that as an option. Tony Armour on this forum is based at Dalton and can attest to the size of the metal that was in the screen and filter. It was so big you could almost see part numbers. Even Herman at Zephyr Engines discouraged me from an overhaul and felt that based on what he saw there was a significant probability that a lifter came loose and sent stuff ricocheting around the internals, kind of like what some bullets are known to do once entering the body. He even felt the crank could be damaged. Even damage to things like the turbo was possible.  Also in speaking with the lycoming rep it confirmed to me that with this engine in particular you are typically getting what amounts to a new engine anyway with a reman  since they don't have lots of Bravo cores sitting around. Again had this been a typical overhaul situation Zephyr would have gotten it, but that ain't the way the cookie crumbled( pun intended).

 

regards, Frank

[Shadrach]

7 minutes ago, IrishTiger said:

I'm sure most of us have heard "There are old pilots, and bold pilots.... But there are no old, bold pilots."

We've all heard it and many of us have said it, we all likely know some old and bold pilots.  I know one well who gave up flying at 85 due to an aneurysm.   He had great stories of ferrying planes in various states of disrepair all over the world.  I know more than one multi-engined student that learned that a twin could be rolled single engine around the dead engine with no ill effects. Bold indeed... T'was a different time.

[Mcstealth]

On January 25, 2016 at 3:30 PM, steingar said:

By Odin, if my engine ever barfs up a windshield full of oil I might have to "forget" to lower the gear on the way back!

Now that, was funny

[Tony Armour]

Great news, Bravoman's new engine arrived and he will be back in the air soon ! 

[Rotorhead]

On 1/19/2016 at 11:27 AM, KSMooniac said:

 

FWIW I did a careful field overhaul of my 360 when I lost a cam lobe, including overhauling my first-run cylinders.  The only downside IMO is the downtime vs. a factory exchange.  I'm very happy with the engine we built and feel we got a smoother, better-balanced engine than Lycoming spits out of the factory.  All of the rotating components got precision balanced, lifters got flow-matched, and the cylinders got flow-balanced as well.  Lycoming just takes parts out of the bins and assembles...  Minimizing vibration is one of the keys to longevity for the engine as well as many airframe components and instruments/avionics.  

@KSMooniac  where/ how did you get the rotating parts balanced?

[KSMooniac]

[mention=6924]KSMooniac[/mention]  where/ how did you get the rotating parts balanced?

I had Barrett in Tulsa do a good portion of my overhaul work. They overhauled, flow-matched and "removed casting flaws" on my first-run cylinders. They precision balanced the rotating parts after Aircraft Specialisties recertified them (also in Tulsa). They painted everything too, prior to assembly.

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[Rotorhead]

@KSMooniac glad you went that route? Any noticeable differences? I know this was 7years ago now but I suppose it's worth asking.