Vacuum Failure Enroute to Florida

[201er]

Had a vacuum failure on my flight KLDJ to KISM today at night. Was about 2 hours into the flight. Diagnoses was very simple. Red "Instrument Source Pump INOP" light came on followed by the High/Low Vac light on the aunnunciator panel shortly after. About 5 minuts later the AI tumbled. Auto pilot rendered inop so I had to hand fly it 3.5 hours the rest of the way with no artificial horizon.

 

I am actually happy it happened like it did on this flight. VMC all the way. If it were in IMC, would have sucked. Good to have it break and fixed at a more opportune time.

This was a good opportunity to try out the standby vac but it didn't work without pulling the throttle way out. At least that one works when you need it most and are at low power anyway (approach). This also proved the problem was the pump and not the AI. HSI is electric.

I did alright flying the rest of the way with no AP or AI. Would you have went on?

The only thing I wonder is, could I have done more damage to the vac pump by continuing the flight? Will it be alright flying back home VMC with vac inop? Can a broken vac pump cause something else to break? Is there anything I should do to further disengage/protect it on the way back? Just leave it as is? Don't fly?

[yvesg]

Mike, my pump failed about an hour away from destination. This was actually on the return flight from OSH when we met a year and a half ago. I did press on since in marginal VFR conditions. I had to replace my AI a few months after replacing the pump. I opened the AI and could find some black particules inside, probably coming from the pump but not quite sure.

Yves

[201er]

2 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I lost my vacuum pump in VMC on a local flight a few weeks ago, and lost another several years ago in my previous Cherokee 180 on a VFR cross country from NC to FL. Running the plane for several hours after the failure did not have any apparent negative affects. This one only lasted <400 hours. The last two lasted around twice that long. 

Since we don't have vac pressure gauges, are there any signs of a deteriorating vac pump? Is the only warning when it simply goes out? Should they be overhauled by hours or as needed?

[Marauder]

2 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said: I lost my vacuum pump in VMC on a local flight a few weeks ago, and lost another several years ago in my previous Cherokee 180 on a VFR cross country from NC to FL. Running the plane for several hours after the failure did not have any apparent negative affects. This one only lasted

Since we don't have vac pressure gauges, are there any signs of a deteriorating vac pump? Is the only warning when it simply goes out? Should they be overhauled by hours or as needed?

Mike -- being a night flight, I would have most likely stopped enroute. I think the moon was pretty full tonight so it probably wasn't too bad to see some reference.

I was in the "change them out at 500 hours camp" and I never had one fail in flight. My Mooney came with a vacuum gauge and I replaced it with a smaller one. I also have two warning lights, one on the panel like yours and one that is part of the annunciation panel.

Did you use the artificial horizon on your WingX?

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[Seth]

Mike- 

Sorry to hear about the failure.  Glad it didn't happen in IMC.  

This should be a straightforward repair/replacement for most mechanics.  Check the cost to have it done at your current location and see what it would cost at your home drone of Linden.  It may be less expensive to have it repaired in Florida.

Did you have some sort of non legal electronic back up for emergencies?

Fly safe,

 

-Seth

[triple8s]

Anyone have any experience with a wet pump? I heard they are much more reliable and last longer.

[Guest]

An Aspen makes a nice back up to those old gyros and vacuum pumps.

A vacuum gauge would give some warning of the wear taking place in the pump.  Generally as the pump wears it takes ever increasing RPM to achieve 5" vacuum.  A healthy pump will make it a lower power settings.

Also, I would replace the pump as soon as possible, the gyro is meant to be spinning on its bearings in flight not sitting and bouncing in one spot.

 

Clarence

[jetdriven]

The carbon dust gets in the gyros,  necessitating a premature overhaul, so I installed a CV1J4 filter to prevent that.  I don't find a turn coordinator a particularly useful backup instrument so i installed a 12v DC electric attitude indicator.  The NTSB reports are full of pilots who lost control of their plane while in IMC before luckily recovering.  Or guy hit trees before going back up in the soup. 

if I did a more IFR flying I'd change them out every 500-700 hours.  But with standby vacuum and attitude plus the filter, I'll run to failure. 

[rbridges]

6 hours ago, 201er said:

Since we don't have vac pressure gauges, are there any signs of a deteriorating vac pump? Is the only warning when it simply goes out? Should they be overhauled by hours or as needed?

I bought a new pump last year. I think they are warranties for 1300 hours but just a few years. I also believe they have sight Windows now to inspect the vanes.  

I've been thinking about pulling my second VOR display and getting an electric AI.  I have the foreflight AHRS and an electric secondary vacuum, but I like redundancy.  Just like you, my failure was during Vfr conditions but it gets you thinking  

 

[Bravoman]

Install an Aerosafe backup electric vacuum pump. Don't have to mess with throttle and manifold pressure, just flip the switch. Have one in my Saratoga too and it works great. Standard equipment in the 98 Bravo. And no I wouldn't intentionally make a trip with an inoperable vacuum pump even with a reliable backup.

[ryoder]

Mine died during day vfr.  Mechanic replaced it for 275 all in while I was at work.  Next time I flew I had full vacuum.

[PTK]

I would have it replaced there and install a CV1J4 filter if you don't already have one. If you have one I'd have it replaced as well. Hopefully you have the filter and gyros are clean of dust.

I carry a spare pump and a CV1J4 in the airplane exactly for this sort of thing. Vaccuum pumps will fail when they feel like it. Even new ones.

[cbarry]

You might consider covering the failed instrument.  This in no way helps disengage the vacuum pump, but does help you disengage from poor information from a failed AI.

[201er]

34 minutes ago, cbarry said:

You might consider covering the failed instrument.  This in no way helps disengage the vacuum pump, but does help you disengage from poor information from a failed AI.

It's a good point. But with nothing covering it for 3 hours, I learned to ignore it. Interesting experience. Would much prefer to cover it in IMC though.

[StevenL757]

201er,

Meteorological conditions aside, I'm wondering why the decision to press on for an additional 3.5 hours instead of either turning back 2 hours, or diverting on noticing the failure.

I ran into this situation 3 years ago when my KI256 failed (although vacuum system was working) midway from NY to TX in IMC.  It rendered the KFC150 INOP, so had to hand-fly and made the decision to get to the nearest airport.  Although fortunate enough to land VMC, the 30 minutes I spent on partial-panel in IMC - something I practice frequently, simulated - was enough for me, and I really just wanted to get down and get the thing fixed.

Not sure what your individual experiences have been in situations like this historically, but your first instinct should have been to get the ship down asap.  Glad you got the desired result, and not trying to have a go at you.  Just want to understand the decision-making.  My $0.02.

[FlyDave]

I had an AI fail on an ODP about 300' below cloud base. The AI constantly rolled back and forth from a 90 degree turn to at 270 degree turn. It was  E X T R E M E L Y disorienting and I cancelled and landed before I went into the soup. Since that experience I keep 2 of the black suction cup instrument covers in the plane to cover a failed instrument. You don't know how freaky and distracting that is until you experience it and I would not want to have to hand fly partial panel looking at that!

[chrisk]

Earlier this year I had my fail about 10 miles from my home field in VMC, at the end of a 700 mile trip.   I noticed the vacuum light well before the AI tumbled, so I'm thinking my scan is ok.  If I was in IMC that would have been the worst possible time:  just about the time when you are starting your approach.  I've read numerous accident reports where a pilot will have a vacuum fail and break out the clouds , only to re-enter them again to stay on the approach, and later crash due to being disoriented.     

Anyway, my vacuum pump was not bad. It was a coupling to the pump that broke.  I think it was around $100 to fix.  I also highly recommend a backup AI of some sort.  I went with an Aspen.  Even if I was in IMC, the vacuum pump failure would have been a non-event, since the old King AI is now my backup.

Also, did you let ATC know?  I had my GPS bite the dust one time.  When I told ATC, they wanted me to fly the airways, which were out of the way.  I asked for a heading and was told no.   Since I was in VMC, so I just canceled IFR and flew home.   --I don't know how much class B you had to go through, which would be my motivation for not reporting.  But the first time I saw a cloud, I'd be reporting a failure.   

 

 

 

[Bennett]

Install an Aerosafe backup electric vacuum pump. Don't have to mess with throttle and manifold pressure, just flip the switch. Have one in my Saratoga too and it works great. Standard equipment in the 98 Bravo. And no I wouldn't intentionally make a trip with an inoperable vacuum pump even with a reliable backup.

I absolutely agree that the Aerosafe unit is an excellent unit. In 40+ years of flying I have lost a vacuum pump twice in IMC and once in VFR conditions. Both the IMC vacuum failures were in Mooneys with the Aerosafe unit, and were non events - flip the switch and watch the vacuum gauge indicate 5-6" of vacuum. I do replace vacuum pumps every 500 hours as a preventive, but interestingly both the IMC failures were with vacuum pumps that had been replaced less than 500 hours previously. When I redid my panel a couple of years ago I added the MidContinent LifeSaver electric backup AI (with battery). Expensive, but a beautiful unit. The new about to be certified Scanda (spelling) electric EFIS unit is less expensive, and provides more information. Dynon makes a portable EFIS that is not certified, but could serve well in an emergency. The price has dropped to about $1000.

[N601RX]

I had one quit a couple of years ago. I replaced it with a Tempest 3000.  At the time they seemed to be the best available and have a wear port so you can monitor wear and replace it before it fails.  I also use the CV1J4 filter and changed it after the pump failed.  No more problems.

[Marauder]

Install an Aerosafe backup electric vacuum pump. Don't have to mess with throttle and manifold pressure, just flip the switch. Have one in my Saratoga too and it works great. Standard equipment in the 98 Bravo. And no I wouldn't intentionally make a trip with an inoperable vacuum pump even with a reliable backup.

I absolutely agree that the Aerosafe unit is an excellent unit. In 40+ years of flying I have lost a vacuum pump twice in IMC and once in VFR conditions. Both the IMC vacuum failures were in Mooneys with the Aerosafe unit, and were non events - flip the switch and watch the vacuum gauge indicate 5-6" of vacuum. I do replace vacuum pumps every 500 hours as a preventive, but interestingly both the IMC failures were with vacuum pumps that had been replaced less than 500 hours previously. When I redid my panel a couple of years ago I added the MidContinent LifeSaver electric backup AI (with battery). Expensive, but a beautiful unit. The new about to be certified Scanda (spelling) electric EFIS unit is less expensive, and provides more information. Dynon makes a portable EFIS that is not certified, but could serve well in an emergency. The price has dropped to about $1000.

I'm with you on finding a good backup. With the proliferation of available backups, everyone who flies IFR should have something. I also applaud the FAA for recognizing the advantages of electronic units as a viable replacement for vacuum units.

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[mike_elliott]

2 hours ago, PTK said:

I would have it replaced there and install a CV1J4 filter if you don't already have one. If you have one I'd have it replaced as well. Hopefully you have the filter and gyros are clean of dust.

I carry a spare pump and a CV1J4 in the airplane exactly for this sort of thing. Vaccuum pumps will fail when they feel like it. Even new ones.

like Clarence said...get an aspen and you can ditch carrying a spare pump, rapco vacuum pump wrench, inline filter, new garter filter, air compressor to blow out the lines, 7.16" wrench, superglue and a couple of screwdrivers....Oh wait, I forgot, you don't like Aspens  (Happy thanksgiving, Peter) just get a g500 then!

[PTK]

I applaud BK for the KI 300 which will enable the removal of the vaccum system altogether in my Mooney! 

http://www.bendixking.com/V4/KI-300

[PTK]

Happy Thanksgiving Mike! 

[mike_elliott]

1 minute ago, PTK said:

I applaud BK for the KI 300 which will enable the removal of the vaccum system altogether in my Mooney! 

http://www.bendixking.com/V4/KI-300

yea, its the $8K (if you want the flight director to drive your KAP) and not available yet feature that keeps me from getting too excited about it. Make it 2-3K and they have a winner.

[PTK]

Actually Mike that figure is not correct. It can be confusing.

With FD it's advertised at 5995$ retail. I think it's extremely reasonable for what it is and the potential it offers.

It's a solution to something that's been missing. Nothing else comes even close.

I know we had this discussion before. How much do you have to spend to do this with Garmin? Even if you settle for Aspen, how much would you have to spend?

Hold the other stuff they bundle in. If one wants to simply replace their KI256 with state of the art technology and remove their vacuum system how much $$ will it take?