Realistic 201 selling prices

[nels]

Like probably everyone on the forum, I keep an eye on asking prices and availability of Mooneys. I have an E model but have a feeling that one of these days I will move into a J. Prices seem to be down a lot but still very few sell. Some are on the market for years not just months. I know radios play a big part in the pricing but putting radios aside what are these things really worth, at what $ do they actually change hands? I don't need a glass panel just descent radios of which almost any Mooney will have. There was an '81 201 on this forum for sale earlier this year for about 60k. It looked like a nice plane. He lowered the price to 55k then 50k and finally 45k obo before it finally sold and probably for less. To me, this is a good representation of what this particular plane was worth when the time comes to sell and this plane was pretty typical of what I see not selling and priced in the 60k to 80k range. What do you folks think? Anybody have any first hand experience?

[Mooneymite]

Since you already have an E, you are "attached" to the market.

Probably a more interesting question is the Delta between your E and a J.....has the Delta widened, or is it about the same?

While the price of J's is down, so is the value of your E.  It's the difference that will matter, unless you plan on keeping your E.

[Cabanaboy]

Perhaps it would be helpful if you posted all the recent sales prices for each plane and include the detailed specifications of each so we could see the data you are speaking of. 

[kevinw]

Totally agree with mooneymite. The fair market value of a J has a direct correlation on the market of your E (and most other models as well).

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[ArtVandelay]

IIRC, the 81J you speak of had a noop AP, VFR GPS, and other 40 year avionics. It really comes down to the details, each plane is unique, some updated, some still have original avionics, interior and paint.

[Brandontwalker]

Like probably everyone on the forum, I keep an eye on asking prices and availability of Mooneys. I have an E model but have a feeling that one of these days I will move into a J. Prices seem to be down a lot but still very few sell. Some are on the market for years not just months. I know radios play a big part in the pricing but putting radios aside what are these things really worth, at what $ do they actually change hands? I don't need a glass panel just descent radios of which almost any Mooney will have. There was an '81 201 on this forum for sale earlier this year for about 60k. It looked like a nice plane. He lowered the price to 55k then 50k and finally 45k obo before it finally sold and probably for less. To me, this is a good representation of what this particular plane was worth when the time comes to sell and this plane was pretty typical of what I see not selling and priced in the 60k to 80k range. What do you folks think? Anybody have any first hand experience?

I recall the '81 J you are referring to. I was knee deep in my search when it was on the market. I believe that particular plane was plagued with a lengthy history of electrical problems and the sales price was likely a good representation of its value. With that said, the median J price is currently around $75k. Some sell for far less and others for far more. 

[nels]

I'm a realist, I think the E's are more stable in asking prices but I think the transaction prices, when they happen, are lower also. 

Perhaps it would be helpful if you posted all the recent sales prices for each plane and include the detailed specifications of each so we could see the data you are speaking of. 

I wish I knew the sales prices, it would negate the reason I posted. 

[Jerry 5TJ]

Each ofl these 40-50+ year old Mooneys Is unique, it seems to me.

By now each has been modified, legally and otherwise.  Each has been pampered or mistreated by five or ten owners, the logs filled with vague entries spanning whole decades.  

A neglected J slumped in the weeds may be worth only pennies per pound as scrap while a stunning B may fetch $65K. 

Condition is everything.   That's why buying an old airplane is so maddening: You have to scrutinize every candidate.  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 7, 2015 by jerry-N5911Q

[nels]

I recall the '81 J you are referring to. I was knee deep in my search when it was on the market. I believe that particular plane was plagued with a lengthy history of electrical problems and the sales price was likely a good representation of its value. With that said, the median J price is currently around $75k. Some sell for far less and others for far more. 

I corresponded with that owner, got plenty of photos and information. I know it had an inop autopilot and not super radio gear but not what I considered plagued with problems? It was not loaded with gadgets, glass panels etc., just a good basic plane at what appears might be a realistic transaction price for that plane? 

[Brandontwalker]

 

I corresponded with that owner, got plenty of photos and information. I know it had an inop autopilot and not super radio gear but not what I considered plagued with problems? It was not loaded with gadgets, glass panels etc., just a good basic plane at what appears might be a realistic transaction price for that plane? 

If I am thinking of the right plane, there was a problem with the landing gear blowing the breaker.  there was also at least one gear up. 

 

**Edit:

Here's a link (don't ask me why I remember tail numbers):

Edited October 7, 2015 by Brandontwalker

[nels]

If I am thinking of the right plane, there was a problem with the landing gear blowing the breaker.  there was also at least one gear up. 

 

**Edit:

Here's a link (don't ask me why I remember tail numbers):

I think that is a different plane than the one I mentioned. That looks to be a 77 model year but even so, someone mentioned at that time, "over priced" at 60k.

[cnoe]

Engine time and condition? Prop? Governor? Mags? Hoses? Starter? Alternator? Pucks? Tires? Brakes? Paint? Interior? Nosegear? Mains?

After all that (plus more) is sorted out, buy the plane for $60K. Then... add tank reseal $8,000, WAAS GPS $12,000, ADS-B transponder $5,000, decent autopilot $20,000 and you're already well north of $100K.

And don't forget the customary 10% of selling price in squawks that were missed in the pre-buy.

As noted above it seems that each plane should be valued on its own merits. It really just depends on what sort of plane you want.

To validate my opinion I should state that I bought my '78 J about 2 years ago and paid a good bit more than $60K... and I couldn't be more pleased with it.

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[carusoam]

Have you seen the pricing strategy put together by the good people at AAA and shared by MAPA...?

It had been the go to place to start the pricing discussion on various Mooney Models.

Model, years, AF hours, Engine hours, all the goodies, and condition allotments are so nicely laid out...

It is put together by people that are selling used Mooneys for people that are interested in buying Mooneys.

Its as good of a resource as you can get to start with...

When it's your first plane purchase, try to buy locally.  When you get to the more expensive models, expect to take a couple of trips. When the trips are across the country, it starts getting really expensive.  Mistakes get made when skipping expensive things like PPI and training.

My thoughts,

-a-

[Shadrach]

It's about condition.  I have a stock always hangared 67 F with basic IFR avionics and original paint. And engine with 1050SMOH and 200SIRAN. I'd be happy if I got $45K for it.

Contrast it with the lovely girl pictured below that I saw at Potomac a few months ago when I was snooping around. It's appearently an estate owned machine and hasn't flown in almost 7 years.

What is it worth? 

I think anything made before around 1990, should be bought on condition and performance. Given that these birds are renew/upgradeable in almost every way, it's the only thing that is logical. The current market does not seem logical to me as I know there are folks on the board traveling 140kts or better in reasonable looking airplanes for under $25K. Given that well documented fact, it's clear the market disagrees with me. Given that a similar year C172 with 2 x the TT will sell for more than a C model.

My hope is that the folks comprising this shrinking market wake up to what is available. There are a lot of intersting and high performing birds out there for less than what a 30 yr old C172 would have brought 10 years ago.

 

 

Edited October 8, 2015 by Shadrach

[nels]

Well Ross, that is a scary looking bird but if it was closer to me I would take a hard look, that is if it could be bought very right, like well under 20k. I'll bet it is corroded beyond repair especially considering the lack of a cabin cover. I think I see dew on the inside of the glass which means its wet in there. It may only be a candidate for parts or it may surprise you and it could be brought back.

[Mooneymite]

... or it may surprise you and it could be brought back.

Many of these derelicts which might have been resurrected in days of yore, no longer make economic sense even if you get them free.

The same phenomenon is at work here as in the home-built world a few years back.  I was building an RV-4, but quickly discovered I could buy a nice RV-4 already flying FAR cheaper than I could complete my kit.  Aircraft are selling a huge discounts from what used to be "market", but there are no discounts when you buy new parts....Aircraft Spruce and the MAC want full retail.  Garmin couldn't care less that you want a radio for a resurrection project.

So you buy full retail parts and your finished "project bird" is immediately devalued to "market" realities.  It's the old thing of making a small fortune out of a large one.

 

 

Edited October 7, 2015 by Mooneymite

[chrisk]

It's about condition.  I have a stock always hangared 67 F with basic IFR avionics and original paint. And engine with 1050SMOH and 200SIRAN. I'd be happy if I got $45K for it.

Contrast it with the lovely girl pictured below that I saw at Potomac a few months ago when I was snooping around. It's appearently an estate owned machine and hasn't flown in almost 7 years.

What is it worth? 

I think for anything made before around 1990, should be bought on condition and performance. Given that these birds are renew/upgradeable in almost every wa, it's the only thing that is logical. The market does not seem logical to me as I know there are folks on the board traveling 140kts or better in reasonable looking airplanes for under $25K. Given that well documented fact, it's clear the market disagrees with me. Given that a similar year C172 with 2 x the TT will sell for more than a C model.

My hope is that the folks comprising this shrinking market wake up to what is available. There are a lot of intersting and high performing birds out there for less than what a 30 yr old C172 would have brought 10 years ago.

 

For $45K, I would rather have your "F"!   I can only picture this 201 as a giant money pit.

[Shadrach]

For $45K, I would rather have your "F"!   I can only picture this 201 as a giant money pit.

Gee thanks, I would hope that it would be no contest...  The real question is in say comparing a bird like John Breda's TN'd 1968 F model to a nicely maintained 1981 201 with a turbo. I believe Doc Breda's F has full 201 aerodynamics (save for the wing tips), manual gear and flaps as well as a RayJay TN'd engine combined with a full glass G600 panel and new P&I. The avionics and AP would probably cost at least $55K installed.  Do you discount it because it was made 13 years earlier than the 201?  If I were trying to buy it I would, but as an impartial 3rd party, I can tell from the pics that it is hands down one of the nicest, cleanest and likely fastest 200HP mid bodies that money can buy. Why would the market not treat it as such. If we were talking about a late model plane say a 2010 Ovation vs a 1997 Ovation, then there is clearly a price delta on age as one is nearly brand new. I think that once you're talking 30+ years old, who gives a $hit. If I were in the market for a Stearman PT-17, am I going to discount a 1936 model over a 1943?...not likely.

When Mooney's are compared to Automobiles, the name Porsche often comes up. This is another market that I follow with some interest and I think that our aircraft will go in a similar direction (show car market excluded).  At some point, any Porsche ceases to depreciate on age; after that it's all about condition, desirability and how it's equipped.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Shadrach

[Shadrach]

Well Ross, that is a scary looking bird but if it was closer to me I would take a hard look, that is if it could be bought very right, like well under 20k. I'll bet it is corroded beyond repair especially considering the lack of a cabin cover. I think I see dew on the inside of the glass which means its wet in there. It may only be a candidate for parts or it may surprise you and it could be brought back.

No visible moisture in the cabin. Basic Collins IFR with a strike finder and I believe a century AP.  What you see on the wings is as build up of grime and mold from not moving for almost 8 years.  Yet, It made the nonstop 615NM trip from the FL panhandle to VKX on Dec 3, 2008 making 155-175kts at 9000 feet.  I am betting it's tied up in probate or the estate is ignorant to the fact that this particular asset's value is falling off a cliff based on the market and its diminishing condition. Someone does take the time to keep the grass underneath it under control.  I hate to see metal aircraft sit on grass for extended periods. If I were younger, single and planeless, I'd try and get permission to do a detailed pre-buy on it. I'd risk it at $12 to $15K as it will part out for more than that if it's not completely rotten. 

Edited October 7, 2015 by Shadrach

[DXB]

Why would the market not treat it as such. If we were talking about a late model plane say a 2010 Ovation vs a 1997 Ovation, then there is clearly a price delta on age as one is nearly brand new. I think that once you're talking 30+ years old, who gives a $hit. If I were in the market for a Stearman PT-17, am I going to discount a 1936 model over a 1943?...not likely. When Mooney's are compared to Automobiles, the name Porsche often comes up. This is another market that I follow with some interest and I think that our aircraft will go in a similar direction (show car market excluded).  At some point, any Porsche ceases to depreciate on age; after that it's all about condition, desirability and how it's equipped.

I think you may be on to something here Ross.   And even if you're not, it's the first rationale-sounding argument I've heard to justify why I'm hemorrhaging money into my '68 C, so I'm willing to go with it 

[Danb]

Ross, that truly made me ill.

[Shadrach]

Ross, that truly made me ill.

You're welcome! I thought the "prop lock" was a nice touch. Like someone is going to cross the runway  at one of 3 airports in the DC FRZ and steal an out of annual, mold covered mooney and fly it out through the FRZ and SFRA undetected... Thank god for that $hitty braded steel cable combination lock. It reminds of those rusty bike frames you see locked to street signs in urban areas.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Shadrach

[Cyril Gibb]

I think that is a different plane than the one I mentioned. That looks to be a 77 model year but even so, someone mentioned at that time, "over priced" at 60k.

N201EF was instructional for me.  I went down to fly it.  Flew great, GNS430, low time roller tappet engine.  Not bad paint and interior.

I paid to have it flown to Canada for a pre-purchase and expected to continue to an annual.  After a VERY short look we found many many issues including terminal spar corrosion.  Not repairable (other than a wingectomy) and not airworthy.

The cost to find that out was several AMUs.  A fraction of what it would have been had the sale gone through.  Don't go cheap on a thorough pre-purchase.

[Shadrach]

N201EF was instructional for me.  I went down to fly it.  Flew great, GNS430, low time roller tappet engine.  Not bad paint and interior.

I paid to have it flown to Canada for a pre-purchase and expected to continue to an annual.  After a VERY short look we found many many issues including terminal spar corrosion.  Not repairable (other than a wingectomy) and not airworthy.

The cost to find that out was several AMUs.  A fraction of what it would have been had the sale gone through.  Don't go cheap on a thorough pre-purchase.

When was that? Sale reported in April of last year. Reregistered 06-09-2014.

[mooniac15u]

N201EF has a colorful history.

http://airflightdisaster.com/index.php/flying-tigers-inspection-fraud-scheme/