22 others Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Because you aren't qualified to make a valid assessment on your own, you paid one of the foremost Mooney experts to give you supporting evidence and a straightforward recommendation. And now you're confused over whether to take his advice??????? Consider yourself the horse that was led to water. I hope you drink. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Most of the issues on my list are labeled either "Airworthy Engine" or "Airworthy Airframe". Only 4 out of 34 items are "Recommended Airframe" and 2 are "Owner Requested" So I think that difference alone about sums it up. Ok your posts were a little unclear and seemed there was confusion over the topic. Best of luck on your purchase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Because you aren't qualified to make a valid assessment on your own, you paid one of the foremost Mooney experts to give you supporting evidence and a straightforward recommendation. And now you're confused over whether to take his advice??????? Consider yourself the horse that was led to water. I hope you drink. He's excited about his (possible) new plane and wants to talk about what was found. Maybe he didn't want to wait for the shop to open, unable to sleep excited about the possibilities. And honestly, there are lots of things that can go either way, fix or not. As an owner you'll learn more about those. Don will certainly help you in your decision. -Robert 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 My Pre-Buy from DMax was as follows... 2 - Owner Requested 19 - Recommended 19 - Airworthy = $5980.00 estimated But Don called me and said not to be afraid of this one and he would recommend purchasing it. As per our agreement, the owner came down $6K off our agreed price, Don's shop did the work, and I've been flying a wonderful Mooney ever since. If Don had NOT recommended the purchase, I would have walked away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fox Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 You paid Don , now you need to listen to what he says , and not the opinions of people that have never seen this plane or the books....Or have the qualifications to make this decision for you...... Regards.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druidjaidan Posted August 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Owner requested... Did you take ownership? That would sum things up. Best regards, -a- I assume it's just how it was labeled. The "Owner Requested" items are "Presale Inspection" and "Compression Test results". Either way, I spoke to Don today. The verdict was not good. It was as feared. A lot of bad maintenance history and clearly not up to par annuals. A large amount of shoddy repairs and and the known spar corrosion repair was hard to ascertain, but the small amount he could see showed less that perfect work (less than great riveting that was clearly because they had tried to skimp on removing skins). Nearly everything on the discrepancy list was repairable. And most of it would be acceptable for us to have at least gone back to the seller for them to fix as airworthiness items. However, the poor wing repairs and the spar repair not being spot on are things that can't really be addressed and would have to be addressed through price reductions...and are likely just unacceptable to us in whole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 I assume it's just how it was labeled. The "Owner Requested" items are "Presale Inspection" and "Compression Test results". Either way, I spoke to Don today. The verdict was not good. It was as feared. A lot of bad maintenance history and clearly not up to par annuals. A large amount of shoddy repairs and and the known spar corrosion repair was hard to ascertain, but the small amount he could see showed less that perfect work (less than great riveting that was clearly because they had tried to skimp on removing skins). Nearly everything on the discrepancy list was repairable. And most of it would be acceptable for us to have at least gone back to the seller for them to fix as airworthiness items. However, the poor wing repairs and the spar repair not being spot on are things that can't really be addressed and would have to be addressed through price reductions...and are likely just unacceptable to us in whole. And that's why you hire Don. He just saved you a whole lot of $$ for the little he charged for the PPI. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Don has a great perspective about potential buyers being "in heat" and he sees it often. It is hard to resist, especially if you've got a plane in PPI, but you're wise to listen to his advice. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Sounds like you have your answer on the overall condition, #1 drain back line fouling baffling spring has groove. - Not a hard fix, but it means things have rubbing the drain back lines. Some people use safety wire across the bottom of the engine to hold the outside baffles together. If they droop it rubs the drainback line from the rocker arm area. Should probably have a threaded rod there to keep things in spec and not drooping. Static Line broke in battery compartment (wouldn't this mean the static system is drawing from cabin air...) - Well tail air which is pretty close to the static ports that are in the tail. Not hard to fix unless the drain or one of the static ports has a nib broke off. Just plastic tubing. Tailpipe has a lot of play @ flange bolts. Could need 3 cotter pins removed washers added to tighten up the springs. If the tail pipe is shot for some reason, it is $450 dollars. Could also need the rubber in the tail pipe hanger replaced. Not hard, but some time to do. LH nose gear door rod end loose. can't turn bolt by hand - new hemi ends. not hard. Should have been lubed. Flaps take 7 pumps to put down & bleeds off fairly quickly on its own (I know this is supposed to be 4.5 pumps, but I don't know what it means for that to not be in spec) - could be a rebuild of the pump or just adjustment. Landing Gear warning switch @ fuel servo broken (does this mean the landing gear warning switch is inop?) The fuel servo is at the front of the engine. Did not know that was where the switch was, but I am still learning. I thought they were in the main wheel well. Means you won't get an alarm when you go below manifold pressure and gear is still up Seems like there are lots of things that should have not passed annual inspection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Don has a great perspective about potential buyers being "in heat" and he sees it often. It is hard to resist, especially if you've got a plane in PPI, but you're wise to listen to his advice. 20 some years ago when I bought my Mooney Don negotiated directly with the seller to fix some items that were not directly airworthiness or covered under an AD but that he considered important. The sell agreed to pay. And I didn't have to do anything. -Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druidjaidan Posted August 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Seems like there are lots of things that should have not passed annual inspection. This last line sums up my conversation with Don this morning nicely. Nothing in the report was terribly unapproachable. Just that it was clear this plane had not had a proper annual in a long time. Two of the inspection panels had to have the screws drilled out in order to open them. Tons of stuff that was overlooked in the recent annual, etc. Then on top of the poor recent maintenance there is a shitty wing repair, he recalls having been told by a previous owner that this plane as having been heavily damaged by a forced landing and a less than stellar spar cap corrosion repair. I went to the seller asked for a discount for the unsatisfactory repairs, to have the plane get a new annual at their expense at Don's as well as some other things that would have made the deal good enough to make it worth it. They declined so now we move on and keep looking for a plane that meets our requirements and hasn't been terribly maintained and dragged through some fence posts. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druidjaidan Posted August 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 Agree. Don't give up if you need to walk from this one. Still money well spent. Shopping for a plane has been a pretty frustrating experience TBH. People ask me what buying a plane has been like, I tell them to imagine the worst, most convoluted home purchase with deranged sellers they can and that would come close to par for an aircraft transaction. "Mechanically fantastic, cosmetically ugly" planes that all it took was a handful of photos to a mechanic to discover that the plane was a total wreck, screwed up title issues with sellers unwilling to budge despite the aircraft having unclear title and being unwilling to resolve the title issue, poor repair history, misleading ads. I have another couple rounds in me, but there isn't a single listed plane on the market that we would consider atm. It doesn't help that the overlap of my needs, my partners needs, and my wifes requirements puts us into a very small market of planes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 Have you considered dealing with All American (Jimmy Garrison), Premier (Richard Simile), or another reputable dealer? I bought my Mooneys in private sales but several here report dealing with these guys is the way to go. Some have traded with All American multiple times. As admitted novices, I suppose a reputable broker/dealer should be able to earn their share of the transaction. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druidjaidan Posted August 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 Have you considered dealing with All American (Jimmy Garrison), Premier (Richard Simile), or another reputable dealer? I bought my Mooneys in private sales but several here report dealing with these guys is the way to go. Some have traded with All American multiple times. As admitted novices, I suppose a reputable broker/dealer should be able to earn their share of the transaction. We've kept an eye out for a plane from All American and even reached out to them about one, but generally their inventory is just too pricey. At the end of the day we may honestly just decide to not do this. We have a hard cap at 60k, and that's already stretched both of our purchase budgets as far as we're willing to go so that we don't end up in a bad spot when unexpected things come up. You throw in the mix of: My partner is a big guy and needs 1000lbs useful, I want IFR capable and don't want to deal with anything less capable that /G our here on the west coast land of terrible VOR coverage, and my wife vetoed the short bodies after trying to fit a stroller in an E. That doesn't leave us many planes =) It may end up just being that we can't afford what we want and don't want what we can afford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rwsavory Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 We've kept an eye out for a plane from All American and even reached out to them about one, but generally their inventory is just too pricey. At the end of the day we may honestly just decide to not do this. We have a hard cap at 60k, and that's already stretched both of our purchase budgets as far as we're willing to go so that we don't end up in a bad spot when unexpected things come up. You throw in the mix of: My partner is a big guy and needs 1000lbs useful, I want IFR capable and don't want to deal with anything less capable that /G our here on the west coast land of terrible VOR coverage, and my wife vetoed the short bodies after trying to fit a stroller in an E. That doesn't leave us many planes =) It may end up just being that we can't afford what we want and don't want what we can afford. You're not going to need that stroller for very long. You should take a second look at C and E models. You are very likely to find a good one in your price range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 I am going along with your real estate idea... Have you come to the realization that nice planes are at one end of the spectrum. The not so nice ones are more likely to be FSBOs. Either end of the spectrum is full up of whacky people. Especially if they are running low on dough after a divorce forcing sale. For an enjoyable sale expect to pay more. Like buying a newer plane with fewer hours. If you end up paying less, that's a really enjoyable sale. It is really challenging to be young while doing this. Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 http://www.lasar.com/w/id/215/new-plane-details.asp http://www.lasar.com/w/id/200/new-plane-details.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 i hear a lot about inspection panels not opened. But Mooney added extra panels that are not necessary to open at annual, they don't provide extra visibility. The manual tells you exactly what panels need to be opened. If you want to open them all, more power to you, but it doesn't serve an inspection purpose. -Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor05121 Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 I went to the seller asked for a discount for the unsatisfactory repairs, to have the plane get a new annual at their expense at Don's as well as some other things that would have made the deal good enough to make it worth it. They declined so now we move on and keep looking for a plane that meets our requirements and hasn't been terribly maintained and dragged through some fence posts. The seller did not count on you being so smart. He is looking for some fool that will buy it so he can run away to the bank. It sounds like you need to just keep browsing the market if you are really in for a Mooney. I've been on and off browsing most major sites and it seems decent aircraft take about 6 months to sell. I've seen some that have been on there for a year plus. If you need it now, you might be best off looking at brand P, C, or B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 i hear a lot about inspection panels not opened. But Mooney added extra panels that are not necessary to open at annual, they don't provide extra visibility. The manual tells you exactly what panels need to be opened. If you want to open them all, more power to you, but it doesn't serve an inspection purpose. -Robert Any Mooney wings I've worked on contain the same number of inspection panels. At different times they have been secured with different types of fasteners, counter sunk screws, truss head screws and some panels are secured with pop rivets. Panels with screws are normally at service points Mooney wanted looked in or at. The pop riveted panels can be removed for more in depth inspections or for access to make repairs. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 Any Mooney wings I've worked on contain the same number of inspection panels. At different times they have been secured with different types of fasteners, counter Clarence Mine has quite a few more screwed on panels than the Mooney Maintenance manual shows needed for inspection. Those are enough to see inside each wing section and I do not open excess screw panels. -Robert -Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 Here is an image for an E I believe. My manual looks about the same. -Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druidjaidan Posted August 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 Mine has quite a few more screwed on panels than the Mooney Maintenance manual shows needed for inspection. Those are enough to see inside each wing section and I do not open excess screw panels. -Robert -Robert I don't know which panels they were, but I trust Don's judgement on which panels should be removed during an inspection. I got the impression, but I might have heard him wrong that the panels in question where the rear fuselage ones, but I may have misheard. If I understood correctly though, it would be quite worrisome as those are important from a quick look at the service manual. He said he thought the plane hadn't been annualed in years....though the logs show it as having been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 Purchased at the beginning of the year. I am pretty mechanically inclined and got with a couple of A&P to help show me the ropes. These things are stone simple that can be taken apart and put back together with a basic tool set and about 5-10 mooney specific tools. What I have found is some A&P consider airworthy are not in my line of thought of airworthy. So there are levels of precision. Many annuals have been signed off with 40 year old hoses. I would suggest any person buying any old mechanical device be prepared to spend $10K over the first year no matter what the purchase price if it is over 20 years old. Once purchased create a maintenance plan of things to repair and or replace. My last order of airplane things included 2 engine mounts. My next order next month will have 2 more. I have some new brake line waiting for the Texas Heat to break. Texas people will get this 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 Texas people will get this Listeria? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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