KSN-770 Can King make a comeback?

[pinerunner]

I'm planning on upgrading my Nav capabilities to WAAS GPS in about a year. I've been getting by happily with an old KSN 80 VOR/DME/RNAV but with ADS-B coming GPS is in order and I don't want to bother with a non-WAAS capable installation.

 

I like what I've been reading about the King KSN-770, especially that it has physical knobs as well as touchscreen. My mechanic basicly told me that no matter how good it is, how well it performs, or how much it fits my preferences, it would be dumb to buy it or anything from King because of the hit I'd take on resale. He believes King has lost the respect they once had, can't get it back, and I should only look at Garmin if I care about the dollars and sense of it. I'd be looking at a Garmin 430W (gotta have WAAS) or 650.

 

Opinions? Can King come back to general aviation? Is touchscreen-only control just fine, even when it's a little bumpy? I'm old-fashioned and like knobs but could change. I don't, however, change just for the sake of changing.

[Bob_Belville]

I swapped out a KNS80 for a GTN750. Fabulous box. Actually there is relatively little need for precision airborne touching screen once you've built up a history of way points. It's mostly comm freq on ATC pass off and the large keypad numbers are hit with your right thumb with fingers braced on the far edge of the radio. 

[KSMooniac]

The new Avidyne boxes can use the touchscreen and knobs as well.  They might not be any/much cheaper than Garmin on a completely new install, though, so that might enter into your debate.

[markejackson02]

Given the very small numbers of installation discussions/photos I have seen in the Mooney space and in the RV world, I would be worried about King cutting them loose in a couple years.  Shame cause it looks like a decent box but their GA company essentially went to Garmin as I understand and they do BizAv now.

[Marauder]

I'm planning on upgrading my Nav capabilities to WAAS GPS in about a year. I've been getting by happily with an old KSN 80 VOR/DME/RNAV but with ADS-B coming GPS is in order and I don't want to bother with a non-WAAS capable installation.

I like what I've been reading about the King KSN-770, especially that it has physical knobs as well as touchscreen. My mechanic basicly told me that no matter how good it is, how well it performs, or how much it fits my preferences, it would be dumb to buy it or anything from King because of the hit I'd take on resale. He believes King has lost the respect they once had, can't get it back, and I should only look at Garmin if I care about the dollars and sense of it. I'd be looking at a Garmin 430W (gotta have WAAS) or 650.

Opinions? Can King come back to general aviation? Is touchscreen-only control just fine, even when it's a little bumpy? I'm old-fashioned and like knobs but could change. I don't, however, change just for the sake of changing.

I would get some demo time on the 770. I REALLY REALLY held out hope that it was going to be the gorilla masher. A few of us had a live demo with a BK sales rep last year. As an Aspen owner, I expected that the Aspen GUI would work on the 770. He didn't. It made the box a kluge box. Where the Aspen menu system works well for a point of information approach (like an Aspen), he doesn't translate well for a box that requires programming.

For most of us who remember when BK was the king of avionics, it is strange to see them in a catch up mode. It doesn't help that their parent company Honeywell is concentrating on their high end avionics and leaving BK to fend for themselves. I heard they even moved their headquarters to Arizona (perhaps for closer alignment with Aspen?).

The touchscreen is fine. For a guy who has made some of the bumpiest videos on YouTube, the touchscreen design only becomes problematic when your fillings start to fall out. As Bob mentioned above, the ridge on the side of the unit is sufficient to allow a stabilized finger touch on the screen. What people don't realize is that all of these touch screens have the capability of using the knobs to enter most of the critical information.

Don't be fearful of the touchscreen!

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[OR75]

I have a 430W.  So I am not considering a 770. However, it looks like a great box and would definitely consider it if I needed a WAAS GPS today

I have had great tech support for a KT-74 install

[FBCK]

I purchased a Avidyne IFD540 and while it seems to be a great box, there is something to be said about buying a proven anything, as with any beta product it been a long road.  They do have a good IPAD and I believe windows simulator, download it and give it a try.

[Aerodon]

BK lost me forever when the wanted to charge $3500 to fix a KX155A which is freely available on the used market for less than $2000.  Buying avionics have three parts to the equation, just like buying a car:

 

1) purchase price

2) operating costs (repairs and databases)

3) resale value (in or out of your plane)

 

Some companies (PS Engineering come to mind) truly do repair their 10 year old equipment at a realistic price.  Others have these outrageous flat rate repairs - L3 comes to mind, not happy paying $1100 and reading 'connector changed'.  Have you seen what they charge for a TRC899 flat rate repair?  Garmin also have a fixed price policy, G430's have to be upgraded to 430W's before you can do the flat rate repair (please tell me it isn't true).

 

It would seem to me that Avidyne have got 'critical mass' and I'm pleased that there is a viable alternative.  Personally, I don't think there is room for three, and you run a high risk that the product never gets traction.  So why take the risk? 

 

It takes 20 years to build a market brand, only a year or two to loose it.  BK would have to do something special to win me back.  Ironically some of their older stuff is still first class - I would not hesitate to install a good 20 year old KX165 as a second com.  Audio quality, reliability and repair costs are excellent.  I would not install a KX165A. 

 

 

Aerodon

[Vance Harral]

The touchscreen is fine. For a guy who has made some of the bumpiest videos on YouTube, the touchscreen design only becomes problematic when your fillings start to fall out. As Bob mentioned above, the ridge on the side of the unit is sufficient to allow a stabilized finger touch on the screen. What people don't realize is that all of these touch screens have the capability of using the knobs to enter most of the critical information.

Don't be fearful of the touchscreen!

 

Just wanted to second this.  There may be good reasons to prefer other products over the GTN series, but touchscreen vs. physical knobs isn't one of them.  It's a non-issue, and I find the concern over it hard to understand.  Especially given that I'd bet many people expressing the concern are flying around with iPads.  If the tubulence is so bad that you can't manage the GTN touch screen, you're not going to have any better luck hitting a hard key the size of a tic-tac on a 430/530/770/whatever.

[donkaye]

Just wanted to second this.  There may be good reasons to prefer other products over the GTN series, but touchscreen vs. physical knobs isn't one of them.  It's a non-issue, and I find the concern over it hard to understand.  Especially given that I'd bet many people expressing the concern are flying around with iPads.  If the tubulence is so bad that you can't manage the GTN touch screen, you're not going to have any better luck hitting a hard key the size of a tic-tac on a 430/530/770/whatever.

 

Turbulence with the GTNs?  Com Side: Enter the frequency with the knob. then push and hold the knob to flip it.  Nav side: Push the knob to move the cursor to the NAV side. Enter the frequency, then push and hold the knob to flip it.  Push the knob to return to the Comm side or wait 15 seconds for it to automatically return to the Com side.  A piece of cake.  Never had a problem with turbulence with the GTNs.

 

Regarding the product to buy: Cadillac or Ford (Garmin vs Avidyne) or Edsel (BK).  I loved the Silver Crown series and my KLN 90B.  Then came the KFD 840 that didn't make it and was shelved.  How could it not interface with its own autopilots or have preselect? So failure with it and those who bought them left blowing in the wind.  Then the KSN-770, years in design and ultimately partnered with Aspen.  If not enough of them are sold, it will go the way of the KFD 840.  As much as I liked Bendix King, I would be afraid to buy a product from them now.

[pinerunner]

Noone is stepping forward and admitting to ownership of a King 770 and how much they like it.

 

I'm starting to be converted. So along the same line of questioning; Is the new Garmin GTN 650/750 series the best choice in terms of both resale value and funtionality. I'm leaning towards the smaller GTN 650 both due to size in my panel and price. It's less expensive than the King 770 and takes up less panel real estate.  

 

I'm also starting to believe my mechanic. Maybe a couple of years from now anyone thinking of buying a Mooney (or any other plane) will look in trade a plane and make up two lists: planes for sale with Garmin GTN technology and those without.

 

I'm looking at training publications to help me settle in to my final decision. Got plenty of time.

[Marauder]

Noone is stepping forward and admitting to ownership of a King 770 and how much they like it.

I'm starting to be converted. So along the same line of questioning; Is the new Garmin GTN 650/750 series the best choice in terms of both resale value and funtionality. I'm leaning towards the smaller GTN 650 both due to size in my panel and price. It's less expensive than the King 770 and takes up less panel real estate.

I'm also starting to believe my mechanic. Maybe a couple of years from now anyone thinking of buying a Mooney (or any other plane) will look in trade a plane and make up two lists: planes for sale with Garmin GTN technology and those without.

I'm looking at training publications to help me settle in to my final decision. Got plenty of time.

Time will tell about the resale value but it will be certain that a plane without a GPS will be more to difficult to sell against one that has one.

Like I mentioned above, I really held out hope for the 770. I know of no one who has installed one, let alone is talking about it. But with the Gorilla's products out there and a decent, but pricey, Avidyne unit, BK will have its challenges getting traction.

As an owner of a 650, if you are not planning on either displaying your weather & traffic on an iPad, portable or a MFD of some type, I would look at the 750. For me the 650 screen is fine since I can display everything on the Aspens and once the flight plan is programmed, I'm spending the majority of my time looking at the Aspens.

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[carusoam]

Some tools are so powerful...

You may ask your community how everybody does something with that tool.

At MS you will get 20 qualified opinions of how best to use a GTN to perform a function.

Another 10 will show how something can still be done using 10 year old tech on a 430W.

A couple people will share their installation challenges regarding antennae placement.

One guy will remind everyone how bad his analog Narco experience was.

Another guy holds out hope that his all BK panel will be maintained with a WAAS KSN770.

If you like to go it alone where no MSer has gone before...

Ask one complex question.

What are the benefits of the KSN770 over the GTNs

-Capabilities

-Price

-Integration with other boxes

-Ease and Cost of data updates

I would really like a KSN to integrate with my existing BK stack and add WAAS to my ship...

Adding one expensive box would outdate about everything in that matching stack. ADF, DMI, NavCom.

2020 updates are going to force an exchange of the TXpdr box.

A big screen GTN can remote mount a few of the boxes that traditionally live in the panel.

The only thing left to drive the KSN770 decision is price...

I haven't thought about this much...

Going alone with an inevitable technical challenge seems too daunting for me.

Best regards,

-a-

[pinerunner]

One thing that will give King a bit more staying power than other GA challengers to Garmin is their existing market in the larger bizjets. I don't know much about that but I would assume that most of the technology in the 770 comes from its big brother avionics just repackaged. Why reinvent the wheel? They may be able to afford to be patient.

[rbridges]

Is it the avidyne units that are plug and play with the 430 and 530?  That is huge to me.  If my 430W gives up the ghost and becomes too expensive to fix, I will lean toward something that would be a simple swap (or close to a simple swap).

[donkaye]

One thing that will give King a bit more staying power than other GA challengers to Garmin is their existing market in the larger bizjets. I don't know much about that but I would assume that most of the technology in the 770 comes from its big brother avionics just repackaged. Why reinvent the wheel? They may be able to afford to be patient.

 

Unlikely.  The 770 was a JV between BK and Aspen.

[pinerunner]

For an update I'm beginning to settle into my mechanic's line of thinking.  I'll probably be getting the Garmin GTN 650 due to its small size in the panel. I just talked to my go to avionics shop (Craig in Concord, NH) and he's installed a bunch of GTN 650's and people love them. No one has wanted to install the King and I don't want to be the first in New England and the first Mooney in the country to test it out. I suppose if King could turn that around in the next year I might take a second look but I'm not holding my breath. I beginning  to believe the new Garmins are what most will be flying with, knowing, and loving. I don't want to be stuck with an Edsel.

[mike_elliott]

Unlikely.  The 770 was a JV between BK and Aspen.

 

Don, is Aspen really involved (financial partnership, etc) with the BK unit, or are they in cohoots to insure interoperability between the Aspen products and the BK products?

[Marauder]

Don, is Aspen really involved (financial partnership, etc) with the BK unit, or are they in cohoots to insure interoperability between the Aspen products and the BK products?

Mike -- from my understanding, BK was struggling to get the 770 certified and got into the JV with Aspen to develop the user interface and help with the certification process. I have seen the 770 and played with it. The GUI is pure Aspen.

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[Marauder]

I should add I think there is more to their relationship than with any of the other manufacturers who are preaching the open hierarchy philosophy.

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[mike_elliott]

Mike -- from my understanding, BK was struggling to get the 770 certified and got into the JV with Aspen to develop the user interface and help with the certification process. I have seen the 770 and played with it. The GUI is pure Aspen.

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Thanks, I really didn't know and was curious. The GUI will be nice if it is pure Aspen. The PDF's is well thought out.

[mike_elliott]

I should add I think there is more to their relationship than with any of the other manufacturers who are preaching the open hierarchy philosophy.

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Now, if only Aspen would truly delv into open architecture...wanna display traffic on their box...no problem give them some $$$ for an unlock. Want to have the freeflight version of their ADS-B box displayed on the aspen? (freeflight makes theirs, I understand) no problem give them a couple thousand. Yes, it works as long as a pound of flesh is included, above and beyond the Aspen's cost.

[flyntgr1]

If BK really wants to sell these, they are going to have to sell it at a price point you can't refuse. Like less than a used garmin 530W. Or they need to add functionality that no one else has. Like say intigrating an ADS-B transponder, audio panel, storm scope, and/or radar without any external boxes.

[mike_elliott]

If BK really wants to sell these, they are going to have to sell it at a price point you can't refuse. Like less than a used garmin 530W. Or they need to add functionality that no one else has. Like say intigrating an ADS-B transponder, audio panel, storm scope, and/or radar without any external boxes.

What is the formula? Give 20% more for 20% less and you are on a level playing ground with the market leader, unless they are an arrogant competitor, then they will take themselves out of the position eventually. 

[OR75]

And then we wonder why aviation products have to cost so much

I still believe it was not a good thing for us consumers when Garmin was allowed to buy UPS (UPS had at that time a superior product)