Pilots Bill of Rights... Again

[aviatoreb]

Keep in mind that I am not the only pilot who thinks the medical ain't so bad. Pretty much the entire staff at my flight school thinks the medical serves a valid purpose. I tried to talk to them about the benefits of LSA and sport pilot but they scoffed at it, thinking I was crazy to even consider it. Go to a 141 school and ask if third class medical reform is top of mind. It's not. They also think nothing of ultralights, gliders, and LSA.

 

Flight schools, where individual thought is discouraged.

 

Sorry - I couldn't help myself.

[ryoder]

Yeah. I told them there is a whole different world out there of light sport. They really didn't get it. I am in the fence with part 23. I think my future lies in ELSA unless they do something.

[mike_elliott]

Tom -- thanks for sharing your friend's story. Many of us have lived through (and paid for) similar fates. The system needs reformed. I just hope the grown ups do the right thing.

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It was less than a year ago that I received a certified letter saying "We have reason to believe that your recent accident may have caused a condition that would preclude you from exercising the privilege of your 2nd class medical". "Please send every note, tests, procedure, diagnosis, prognosis, etc. every doctor who has ever seen you has"

After spending a huge amount of time and $ gathering it all, I also went in to a lead AME here in Fl. and got a new 2nd class medical. I submitted a package overnight to the FAA's medical team director in Atlanta after talking with her on the recommendation of a number of AME's I know, who also corresponded on my behalf.

I thought all was well, until I received another certified letter right before thanksgiving and a scheduled trip to Texas requesting additional full motion studies, and notes, diagnosis, prognosis, details, etc of a condition I had 15 years before getting my PPL, which has been reported every medical from day 1.

I almost cried. Exasperated, I decided to call the person who's name is on the letter, the head of her department. I couldn't talk to her, but the kind phone receptionist says "we do have a lot of Doctors here that can speak to you about this" and I agreed. I was put in touch with a kind gent who looked up the info, and declared..."hum,...a full motion study wont be necessary, I see you have a release already from your Orthopedic surgeon". As for the request for the ancient condition, that's not necessary either. Ill sign off on it and send  you a "wire" )

and that's is how a few broken bones can mess you up, Ryan. This all got resolved, but I had a lot of high horsepower help, and it wasn't without pain, and it was without reason. I did it by their book, but the book has dynamic rules it seems.

[Amelia]

The 3rd Class Medical is valid for the period of time one is sitting in the office of the AME. Walk out of that office, and all bets are off. There is absolutely no guarantee that you are anything but $125 poorer fifteen minutes later, having proved you are able to fog a mirror and read the little dotty numbers again this biennium. I called my Senators. Their aides nodded sagely and agreed they could see my point. It's just about like ATC saying in a dry voice, "We have your request." No commitment. Make your request of the next sector... kick that not-enough-votes-or-money-at-stake can down the electoral road. There is no real hope for change, so long as there is a huge OKC bureaucracy of make-work jobs to improve the employment statistics. So, I have jumped through the political hoops, signed the big, silly petition, spoken with politicians, and... will go get my absurd 3rd class medical again this year. And two years after that, and another two years after that, God willing. When I eventually have my heart attack and get cured of it, that will be the end of it. I don't have the deep pockets or the emotional stamina to jump through the stupid hoops. There will be a wonderful Mooney 231 for sale at that time. And y'all who love your cursory, expensive FAA physicals can breathe a sigh of relief that there'll be one more hazard to navigation out of the sky for good.

[midlifeflyer]

It was less than a year ago that I received a certified letter saying "We have reason to believe that your recent accident may have caused a condition that would preclude you from exercising the privilege of your 2nd class medical". "Please send every note, tests, procedure, diagnosis, prognosis, etc. every doctor who has ever seen you has"

After spending a huge amount of time and $ gathering it all, I also went in to a lead AME here in Fl. and got a new 2nd class medical. I submitted a package overnight to the FAA's medical team director in Atlanta after talking with her on the recommendation of a number of AME's I know, who also corresponded on my behalf.

I thought all was well, until I received another certified letter right before thanksgiving and a scheduled trip to Texas requesting additional full motion studies, and notes, diagnosis, prognosis, details, etc of a condition I had 15 years before getting my PPL, which has been reported every medical from day 1.

I almost cried. Exasperated, I decided to call the person who's name is on the letter, the head of her department. I couldn't talk to her, but the kind phone receptionist says "we do have a lot of Doctors here that can speak to you about this" and I agreed. I was put in touch with a kind gent who looked up the info, and declared..."hum,...a full motion study wont be necessary, I see you have a release already from your Orthopedic surgeon". As for the request for the ancient condition, that's not necessary either. Ill sign off on it and send  you a "wire" )

and that's is how a few broken bones can mess you up, Ryan. This all got resolved, but I had a lot of high horsepower help, and it wasn't without pain, and it was without reason. I did it by their book, but the book has dynamic rules it seems.

 

Yours is not the only story like that. Sometimes it doesn't even have to be a condition or accident. Even with a truthful "No" in the #18 boxes, just say the wrong thing about the reason for or the specialty of one of those "visits to healthcare professionals in the past three years" and watch the bureaucracy roll into action. I've known pilots who elected to fly under sport pilot rules for a few years just to avoid having to list something in answer to #19. 

 

Personally, I have been surprised in reporting something I thought was pretty innocuous but ended up triggering a request for reports and 5 years of Special Issuances. For anything new to report, I always try to find out whether it might trigger an inquiry, how best to state it both accurately and with minimal impact, and what paperwork it would be wise to bring with me. Fortunately, it hasn't been an issue.

[flyboy0681]

I just want to weigh in on the title of this thread, which is "Pilot's Bill of Rights". From reading through some of these I see the conversation has swing all over the place, which is fine and constructive, but I want to address the FAA's Pilot's Bill of Rights which just recently worked for me and kept me out of potential hot water with them.

 

As I had written here, in May I went NORDO while flying through the Columbia, South Carolina area and received a call from the FSDO several weeks later about the incident. The investigator said that before proceeding with the case, he was going to mail me the Pilot's Bill of Rights via Certified Mail. When I received it the document stated that I had the right to review all recorded conversations with ATC. With that in hand I had requested the "tapes" and a CD was sent to me containing the ATC transmissions. It's because of this "right" that the case was almost instantly closed. It seems the controller signed a statement stating that he handed me off to Greer Approach and that I acknowledged him but never switched over to the new frequency, which I found very hard to believe. I found the section of the recording where he called to switch me over but there was absolutely no response from me, or anybody else - just dead air. Apparently I flew out of range by the time he got to me and I never picked up his call. Case closed.

 

If I didn't have the right to all of the materials I may have been lawyered up by now, waiting for them to get through the materials themselves, all the while paying $300 an hour.

[carusoam]

Thanks for the nice follow up FB.

We are still getting to know how the system works.

Best regards,

-a-

[Deb]

The Pilot's Bill of Rights is courtesy of Senator Jim Inhofe of Oaklahoma. Perhaps if he is denied his medical, PBOR 2 will be passed. (If he's in the market for a new plane, maybe the Part 23 rewrite...)

[midlifeflyer]

Thanks for the nice follow up FB.

We are still getting to know how the system works.

Best regards,

-a-

 

If anyone is interested in "how the system works" and can stand 40 minutes including excruciating detail (ideas on where to split it to make it more palatable are welcome), I have a video of my last pilot presentation (last January) on my YouTube channel at (is there a way to embed the video here?)

 

https://youtu.be/qdoQaGKzGuU

[midlifeflyer]

The Pilot's Bill of Rights is courtesy of Senator Jim Inhofe of Oaklahoma. Perhaps if he is denied his medical, PBOR 2 will be passed. (If he's in the market for a new plane, maybe the Part 23 rewrite...)

The Pilot's Bill of Rights II is already courtesy of Jim Inhofe. He's the one who introduced it.

[midlifeflyer]

I just want to weigh in on the title of this thread, which is "Pilot's Bill of Rights". From reading through some of these I see the conversation has swing all over the place, which is fine and constructive, but I want to address the FAA's Pilot's Bill of Rights which just recently worked for me and kept me out of potential hot water with them.

 

As I had written here, in May I went NORDO while flying through the Columbia, South Carolina area and received a call from the FSDO several weeks later about the incident. The investigator said that before proceeding with the case, he was going to mail me the Pilot's Bill of Rights via Certified Mail. When I received it the document stated that I had the right to review all recorded conversations with ATC. With that in hand I had requested the "tapes" and a CD was sent to me containing the ATC transmissions. It's because of this "right" that the case was almost instantly closed. It seems the controller signed a statement stating that he handed me off to Greer Approach and that I acknowledged him but never switched over to the new frequency, which I found very hard to believe. I found the section of the recording where he called to switch me over but there was absolutely no response from me, or anybody else - just dead air. Apparently I flew out of range by the time he got to me and I never picked up his call. Case closed.

 

If I didn't have the right to all of the materials I may have been lawyered up by now, waiting for them to get through the materials themselves, all the while paying $300 an hour.

 

Don't know about the $300 per hour, but what you saw has been happening a lot since the PBoR took effect. In fact, the FAA recently came out with a "gentler, friendlier" guidance about the process at the end of June. Whether that is the result of "seeing the light" that safety is about training, not punishment, or the result of the extra workload on Inspectors because of the need to comply, is anyone's guess. But I've seen result like yours regularly over the past few years, and not only when the tapes show the pilot was in the right,  including one that was particularly surprising.

[flyboy0681]

Don't know about the $300 per hour, but what you saw has been happening a lot since the PBoR took effect. In fact, the FAA recently came out with a "gentler, friendlier" guidance about the process at the end of June. Whether that is the result of "seeing the light" that safety is about training, not punishment, or the result of the extra workload on Inspectors because of the need to comply, is anyone's guess. But I've seen result like yours regularly over the past few years, and not only when the tapes show the pilot was in the right,  including one that was particularly surprising.

 

 

I just finished listening to the presentation and everything you mentioned is exactly how it went down for me, from the initial call (where I said nothing), to my request for ATC information (which was promptly fulfilled) to the taking of my time to write a careful statement which didn't implicate myself, to waiting patiently for the inspectors response.

 

Luckily you have a very engaging voice and I wasn't bored at any point. I think every pilot should listen to this not to know what to expect in case of problems, but how to handle themselves should they unexpectedly get the call.

 

I do have a question about the AOPA legal services program. In the event an attorney is needed, does it cover the pilot for a limited amount of time or is the pilot covered for whatever is required from start to finish? In other words, if the case turns into a year long ordeal, is the pilot covered for legal services the whole time or does it end after, say , twenty hours?

 

Let me finish by saying that the inspector that handled my case was great. He was friendly, personable and was able to answer any question that I had. The complete opposite of what I was expecting.

[Deb]

The Pilot's Bill of Rights II is already courtesy of Jim Inhofe. He's the one who introduced it.

Understood. I tried to convey a bit of humor, but I guess I failed. I was referring to the fact that the measure had not been acted on. My apologies.

[midlifeflyer]

I just finished listening to the presentation and everything you mentioned is exactly how it went down for me, from the initial call (where I said nothing), to my request for ATC information (which was promptly fulfilled) to the taking of my time to write a careful statement which didn't implicate myself, to waiting patiently for the inspectors response.

 

Luckily you have a very engaging voice and I wasn't bored at any point. I think every pilot should listen to this not to know what to expect in case of problems, but how to handle themselves should they unexpectedly get the call.

 

I do have a question about the AOPA legal services program. In the event an attorney is needed, does it cover the pilot for a limited amount of time or is the pilot covered for whatever is required from start to finish? In other words, if the case turns into a year long ordeal, is the pilot covered for legal services the whole time or does it end after, say , twenty hours?

 

Let me finish by saying that the inspector that handled my case was great. He was friendly, personable and was able to answer any question that I had. The complete opposite of what I was expecting.

There is a limit, I don't recall offhand how many hours but looking at the plan information will tell you. The idea is to avoid the situation in which the best result is to give up but the pilot wants to keep fighting any way. For time over the limit, there's an agreed rate that is tied to the rate that the far pays in the case of cases that should not have been brought (the subject of additional hearings). I think it's $200 per hour currently.

[midlifeflyer]

I just finished listening to the presentation and everything you mentioned is exactly how it went down for me, from the initial call (where I said nothing), to my request for ATC information (which was promptly fulfilled) to the taking of my time to write a careful statement which didn't implicate myself, to waiting patiently for the inspectors response.

 

Luckily you have a very engaging voice and I wasn't bored at any point. I think every pilot should listen to this not to know what to expect in case of problems, but how to handle themselves should they unexpectedly get the call.

 

...and thank you for the kind words.

[bonal]

I thought I would post this here as It speaks of AOPA. Like many of you I receive daily e mail (ebriefs) and other stuff from AOPA and I enjoy reading them  What I have noticed is more and more stories about wonderful stuff that's happening in the world of UAV's and drones being covered in the aviation updates and news stories.  looks like AOPA might be looking to spread its wings (no pun) to gain a bigger membership DOOA drone owners and operators association.  I know the discussion on the 3rd class is very important but we all better keep an eye on the horizon big F...ing companies want our airspace and they have the financial muscle to get it.

[GeorgePerry]

From AOPA - Here is the latest update.  This is very encouraging news and as Mark Baker notes, we've never been closer than we are right now.

The Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation has set Nov. 18 as the date to move the Pilot's Bill of Rights 2 (S. 571). Third class medical reform is among the provisions in the legislation designed to help general aviation pilots. 

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2015/November/11/Medical-reform-legislation-set-for-markup

Here is a list of Congressmen and Senators who have not signed on. http://www.aopa.org/Advocacy/Legislative-Affairs/Non-CoSponsors-PBR2

 Please send them a note or call letting them know this is an important issue!

[Marauder]

From AOPA - Here is the latest update.  This is very encouraging news and as Mark Baker notes, we've never been closer than we are right now.

The Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation has set Nov. 18 as the date to move the Pilot's Bill of Rights 2 (S. 571). Third class medical reform is among the provisions in the legislation designed to help general aviation pilots. 

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2015/November/11/Medical-reform-legislation-set-for-markup

Here is a list of Congressmen and Senators who have not signed on. http://www.aopa.org/Advocacy/Legislative-Affairs/Non-CoSponsors-PBR2

 Please send them a note or call letting them know this is an important issue!

What actually disgusts me is Senator Tom Carper from my state. I have met the Senator at a social event and even discussed general aviation with him knowing he was a former naval aviator. How can I guy who flew, be against this?

I suspect either it is because it is tied to other provisions on the bill or he was on the wrong end of a Tail Hook hazing.

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[Danb]

Chris my bet is Carper wants some sort of concession or inclusion of something unrelated to aviation, as most legislators from our state one thing comes from there mouth and another from another part of there anatomy. I've known Tom for yrs.and this doesn't surprise me, you were based at KILG so you know what I mean.