Advise on buying my first Mooney

[JKSmith]

Looking to get some solid opinions, I was approached by a good friend of mine to purchase his M20F. It's a decent bird, original paint, decent interior, and seemingly low hours. I believe 4,000 airframe, and around 250 on the motor. The only thing I hate about it is that in the past three years it has been flown maybe 25 hours. He has agreed to let me get checked out in it, and let a mechanic of my choosing go over it. It has received a annual every year and has never been out of annual. I would really like to know what I need to look for and what I should expect. I have a lot of time in cessnas and only a few hours in a Statesman mooney thank you ahead of time any input is appreciated.

[jkhirsch]

Just my immediate, unfiltered reaction here:

Does it seem like recently we are getting a rash of people asking questions that have been tirelessly answered in the past?

Or has MS always had that condition and I'm just now paying enough attention to notice?

I don't really mean to be so rude, but there is a ton of information here, and it seems like lately no one bothers to read anything and make a well formed detail specific question before they post.

[ArtVandelay]

That's pretty common, here is an extreme example:

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20J-201/1995-MOONEY-M20J-201/1346107.htm

140 total hours in 20 years!!

Does he have a history of oil analysis?

How often were the oil changes, once a year?!

Has it been hangered?

With an engine with only 250 hrs, if you pay a premium for low time engine you need to make sure it's good. If the engine had 1750 hrs, you price it as a runout and don't have much to lose.

If the answers to my ?s are no, 1, no

I would plan on an extensive prebuy, looking for corrosion in the airframe and the engine, both expensive because it requires some disassembly

[ArtVandelay]

Just my immediate, unfiltered reaction here:

Does it seem like recently we are getting a rash of people asking questions that have been tirelessly answered in the past?

Or has MS always had that condition and I'm just now paying enough attention to notice?

I don't really mean to be so rude, but there is a ton of information here, and it seems like lately no one bothers to read anything and make a well formed detail specific question before they post.

We really need a FAQ

[JKSmith]

I never asked about a oil analysis, from my understanding oil was changes during the annuals, it has always been hangered, he's asking $45,000 for the bird, I haven't haggled at the moment because I want to see how the pre buy goes before I make any kind of offer. I talked to my A&P friend that I have made over the years and he wants to pretty much do an annual on the plane, testing the mags, compressions, airframe and landing gear. He told me that they'res a test that he done that required using a magnet to test the airframe for corrosion. But anyways I want my first plane to be a enjoyable experience not a nightmare

[Wakeup]

Anyway to make the search feature more user friendly? I have looked for older posts or subjects I know have been discussed and it doesn't bring anything up. Maybe I need a lesson is searching

[Mooneymite]

We really need a FAQ

 

What? And spoil all the fun of pontificating each and every time?

 

Heresy!

 

Besides, why would anyone read FAQ's when they can post an ever-popular question?

 

[JKSmith]

Just my immediate, unfiltered reaction here:

Does it seem like recently we are getting a rash of people asking questions that have been tirelessly answered in the past?

Or has MS always had that condition and I'm just now paying enough attention to notice?

I don't really mean to be so rude, but there is a ton of information here, and it seems like lately no one bothers to read anything and make a well formed detail specific question before they post.

I asked first of all because there maybe one similarity to my question per 100 posts to the forum. Second of all due to the variants of mooneys my F may call for a different line of questioning or response. I'm no trying to be a pest I just want information from people that have had more expericne with these type of things than I have.

[jkhirsch]

I asked first of all because there maybe one similarity to my question per 100 posts to the forum. Second of all due to the variants of mooneys my F may call for a different line of questioning or response. I'm no trying to be a pest I just want information from people that have had more expericne with these type of things than I have.

Not to start trolling here, but it sounds like what you want is all of that information spoon fed to you.

 

Seriously, I promise I'm not railing against you personally, it just seems like this has become a pandemic lately.

 

I own an F myself, I love it, glad you are here, glad you are part of the community. There are a lot of questions and answers to be had here, I've spent hours on end reading through 70+ pages of information just contained within the Vintage forum. I like to think that I have made an attempt to not just come in and say, "hey just tell me all this information so I don't have to do anything for myself" then leave the forum and never participate again.

 

I realize that THIS is not what you have said or done, again just a reaction to what seems to be a recent trend here on MS.

[mike_elliott]

Looking to get some solid opinions, I was approached by a good friend of mine to purchase his M20F. It's a decent bird, original paint, decent interior, and seemingly low hours. I believe 4,000 airframe, and around 250 on the motor. The only thing I hate about it is that in the past three years it has been flown maybe 25 hours. He has agreed to let me get checked out in it, and let a mechanic of my choosing go over it. It has received a annual every year and has never been out of annual. I would really like to know what I need to look for and what I should expect. I have a lot of time in cessnas and only a few hours in a Statesman mooney thank you ahead of time any input is appreciated.

 

What you should look for is a great reputable Mooney Service Center to do a prebuy/annual like Don Maxwell. What you should expect is to sink about 10 to 15% of the purchase price into it again the first year fixing and updating, along with being able to wear a big old grin while flying. Where are you located? Where is the plane?

From what you have said, I would want to have the cam and lifters looked at (particularly the shared intake lobes) personally.

/shameless plug = ON.

Oh, don't skimp here, get a good Mooney specific flight instructor for checkout. It will save you $$ in the long run, and enable you to really enjoy what an F has to give you.

/shameless plug = OFF

[Cruiser]

NTSB Identification: . 
The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number 29277.
Accident occurred Friday, August 16, 1985 in FT. MYERS, FL
Aircraft: MOONEY M20F, registration: N7122V
Injuries: 3 Uninjured.
NTSB investigators may not have traveled in support of this investigation and used data provided by various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.
THE ACFT SETTLED TO THE RWY DURING THE TAKEOFF ROLL AFTER THE LANDING GEAR RETRACTED. THE PLT STATED THAT THE LANDING GEAR COLLAPSED FOR AN UNKNOWN REASON. A POST ACCIDENT INSPECTION OF THE LANDING GEAR AND RELATED COMPONENTS REVEALED NO DEFECTS OR MALFUNCTION THAT WOULD HAVE PRECLUDED NORMAL OPERATION. 

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be:
GEAR RETRACTION..PREMATURE..PILOT IN COMMAND

 

I would offer to pay the insurance for you to be listed as a primary pilot on his aircraft. I would arrange a per hour rate (dry) for you to fly the plane for the balance of this year, with the option to buy if everything works out after you get 50 or 100 hrs on it.

[JKSmith]

Not to start trolling here, but it sounds like what you want is all of that information spoon fed to you.

 

Seriously, I promise I'm not railing against you personally, it just seems like this has become a pandemic lately.

 

I own an F myself, I love it, glad you are here, glad you are part of the community. There are a lot of questions and answers to be had here, I've spent hours on end reading through 70+ pages of information just contained within the Vintage forum. I like to think that I have made an attempt to not just come in and say, "hey just tell me all this information so I don't have to do anything for myself" then leave the forum and never participate again.

 

I realize that THIS is not what you have said or done, again just a reaction to what seems to be a recent trend here on MS.

No problem, like I said earier I'm not trying to be a pest, and what I've failed to mention is that I've sat on a computer for weeks finding pre written information on mooney's especially the F model. There's a big write up online that I read that peaked my interest but still its pre written. The only person in my area that I can talk to about mooney's in general is the owner of this mooney and it's always nice to get some input on the plane and maybe find out new things to be aware of. i don't wanna be spoon fed and I have no problem answering questions that may have been asked before, because usually on these forums you'll get 1,000,000 answers to a simple question. Sorry for your frustration I'm just wanting self assurance so that I'm making the right steps into ownership.

[rbridges]

25 hours in 3 years isn't good.  may not be bad, but doesn't make me feel as good as buying a plane that has averaged 50+ hours/year over the last several years.  How far are you from Cole Aviation?  He's an MSC in north GA.  There may be one closer to your neck of the woods.  Have someone give it a close inspection, definitely not the same person who has kept it in annual.  

[DXB]

Agree with having Joe Cole do the prebuy- he did mine.  He won't miss anything major.  If you can stomach the extra expense (and the strain on your friendship with the seller), have him pull a cylinder and look in the crankcase.   If no significant corrosion or cam/lifter spalling, you can have peace of mind despite the very low  hours in the last 3 years.

[Guest]

Just my immediate, unfiltered reaction here:

Does it seem like recently we are getting a rash of people asking questions that have been tirelessly answered in the past?

Or has MS always had that condition and I'm just now paying enough attention to notice?

I don't really mean to be so rude, but there is a ton of information here, and it seems like lately no one bothers to read anything and make a well formed detail specific question before they post.

WOW!! Who took a dump in your corn flakes?

Clarence

[Guest]

Looking to get some solid opinions, I was approached by a good friend of mine to purchase his M20F. It's a decent bird, original paint, decent interior, and seemingly low hours. I believe 4,000 airframe, and around 250 on the motor. The only thing I hate about it is that in the past three years it has been flown maybe 25 hours. He has agreed to let me get checked out in it, and let a mechanic of my choosing go over it. It has received a annual every year and has never been out of annual. I would really like to know what I need to look for and what I should expect. I have a lot of time in cessnas and only a few hours in a Statesman mooney thank you ahead of time any input is appreciated.

Buying from a friend may not be the wisest move. A thorough Pre purchase inspection may reveal things about his plane that will not make him very happy.

Old airplanes can be full of nasty surprises, low use engines like this have corroded cylinder walls, corroded cam and lifter sets. The Mooney airframe is known to have corroded aluminum wing structure, corroded steel airframe structure, leaking fuel tanks just to name a few major issues.

I'm of the opinion that the PPI should open every panel on the plane which can be removed, remove the entire interior. It is not an annual inspection, but could become one as the deal progresses. Log books should be reviewed from cover to cover, all AD's and S/Bs checked for compliance, all STCs and 337s must be present, the Weight and Balance present and correct.

Far better the spend more on the PPI, than join the ranks of those who saved a few dollars and regret their purchase.

Clarence

[Seth]

Just my immediate, unfiltered reaction here:

Does it seem like recently we are getting a rash of people asking questions that have been tirelessly answered in the past?

Or has MS always had that condition and I'm just now paying enough attention to notice?

I don't really mean to be so rude, but there is a ton of information here, and it seems like lately no one bothers to read anything and make a well formed detail specific question before they post.

You're just noticing it.  I never mind the rehashing, but it's been here for some time.  That being said, we've only been in existence, what, 7-8 years?  Lots of topics have multiple years before they are discussed again.

[JKSmith]

Buying from a friend may not be the wisest move. A thorough Pre purchase inspection may reveal things about his plane that will not make him very happy.

Old airplanes can be full of nasty surprises, low use engines like this have corroded cylinder walls, corroded cam and lifter sets. The Mooney airframe is known to have corroded aluminum wing structure, corroded steel airframe structure, leaking fuel tanks just to name a few major issues.

I'm of the opinion that the PPI should open every panel on the plane which can be removed, remove the entire interior. It is not an annual inspection, but could become one as the deal progresses. Log books should be reviewed from cover to cover, all AD's and S/Bs checked for compliance, all STCs and 337s must be present, the Weight and Balance present and correct.

Far better the spend more on the PPI, than join the ranks of those who saved a few dollars and regret their purchase.

Clarence[/quote

Thank you for your input, I'm located at the moment at 5KY4 but the plane is at 4M7 and 4M7 is visible from my back door. The mechanic I had in mind is David Bliss at M91 I watched him rebuild a mooney after a prop strike and he seems to know and enjoy mooneys, I think he'll benefit me because he's closer to home and knows me so he's not really a stranger. There's a "mooney" mechanic at another semi local airport but he's done some of the annuals before and knows the current owner pretty well so I kinda steer clear of him. It's kindof a double edged sword on my part, I've always had a interest in mooneys and I don't want to upset him if there are many things wrong with the plane. Like stated before I've seen a lot of high time airframes in better shape than low time ones

[kmyfm20s]

Many topics get recycled. It reminds me of a coffee club of old guys sounding like a broken record talking about the same thing all the time. Funny thing is they still come back to hang out with each other. If the topic bothers you or have no interest for it just don't open it, then you don't have to get frustrated with it. Personally it seems to me like there is becoming less fresh relevant topics to discuss. If everyone just jumps on and searches to find their answers we would have no interaction and then what. We would be forced to fly our plane that we want to talk about all the time:)

[Seth]

Looking to get some solid opinions, I was approached by a good friend of mine to purchase his M20F. It's a decent bird, original paint, decent interior, and seemingly low hours. I believe 4,000 airframe, and around 250 on the motor. The only thing I hate about it is that in the past three years it has been flown maybe 25 hours. He has agreed to let me get checked out in it, and let a mechanic of my choosing go over it. It has received a annual every year and has never been out of annual. I would really like to know what I need to look for and what I should expect. I have a lot of time in cessnas and only a few hours in a Statesman mooney thank you ahead of time any input is appreciated.

As others reiterated, Pre Purchase Inspection without questions.

 

The big worry I have is the same as others - issues with low use inside the engine.

 

The F Model is a great plane.   I owned a 1967 M20F and sold it up when I moved up the  Mooney ladder.  I actually did sell it to a friend.  I was going to put it on the market and the day before I was to post the add on Controller.com, my friend called me and asked my opinion on a 1968 M20G on ebay.  I gave him my honest opinion explained the pros and cons, known and unknown, and then let him know at the end of the call that he could have my plane for $XX,000 more as I was putting it on the market the next day, but he could have it for a pre market discount.  We came to an agreement and I flew it down to Florida a few weeks later.

 

He has since repainted it (it looks fabulous) and has enjoyed flying it.  

 

I too was scared a bit selling to a friend, and in this case it has worked out really well (2011 sale).

 

I like the idea of a "rent" rate for the rest of the year and then a purchase.  That way if the engine or other issues crop up, you aren't on the hook for them.  That being said, if the deal is REALLY good, you may just want to take the offer after a PPI.

 

Has the aircraft been hangered or left outside?  What kind of flying is 90% of your mission?

 

Welcome to MooneySpace!!!

 

-Seth

[JKSmith]

The aircraft has been hangered it's entire life as far as I know. I put 5 hours on it a week ago with the current owner just to get it out honestly. It flew good but things can change quick in my opinion on things that have sat a while. My mission with a airplane is kinda mixed. My current FBO doesn't like they're planes gone much longer than a day so all I've been able to do is take $100 hamburger runs on my own. But I would really like to take trips to air shows most trips I currently make now average 150nm but that's with a rental.

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[22 others]

We really need a FAQ

 

Yup. It should probably be George Perry's guide to buying a Mooney with some links to other information/posts. Add a few links to the MAPAlog descriptions of the various models. A few links to a few books.  Maybe some other stuff I'm not smart enough to consider.   Mooneyspace really could put together a very good resource with information that is already here.

 

A seperate sticky/FAQ page would be needed for the bargain basement shoppers.

 

I found the guys here to be extremely helpful when I shopped for my C. It was my first plane purchase following a long hiatus from flying.

 

I do still read all of these and I enjoy most of them.

 

[JKSmith]

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[JKSmith]

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[JKSmith]

There's some pics of the bird

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