Model C money refurb

[Jim Peace]

OK pictures are uploaded to my profile in the gallery......

 

I will be doing a full writeup on the annual when I get some time.

 

My mechanic was super !!!!

 

He is an IA who cares, and treats the plane as if its his own............

 

small story....

 

He just moved into a new place on the airport.  He told me one night when it started raining hard he thought he may have left a box of some interior parts on the floor and he did not know if the hangar leaked.  So he drove to the airport at 3am to be sure they were safe....and they were but not many people will do this......

[Gaelens]

Thanks for uploading them! Good mechanics are hard to find, where'd you find yours?

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[Jim Peace]

Thanks for uploading them! Good mechanics are hard to find, where'd you find yours?

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Mine has been at the VNY airport for years.  I did not originally go to him because I wanted to have a MSC do all of this work.  But a long story short from another thread I pulled the plane after 3 weeks of it just sitting on their ramp....It actually worked out better for me, I got to keep a close eye on it when I was in town and I know the mechanic from working on my friends airplanes........

 

His name is Lance Yomtob 661-305-9200.....great rates and honest......

[gsxrpilot]

If you're in Austin, come take a look at my C. I might be biased, but I've been told I fly one of the nicest examples of the type. I have all the available speed mods, and an updated panel. I've got manual gear and I'm happy to take you up and let you try it out.

 

I'm out of the country right now, but will be back later in the month.  I'd also be happy to discuss my pre-buy experience and working with both Jimmy/David at All American as well as working with Don Maxwell.

 

If you want a C, come take a look at mine.

[cliffy]

The reality of a C

I've flown mine for 14 years and 1600 hrs. Yes I like it. Cheap way to travel.

After years of reading this forum figure 140 kts TAS. Figure 8.5 to 9.5 GPH in cruise at 8000' to 11,000'

4 pax can be done but you won't like it for too long. I've had 4 in mine 3 times.

You absolutely need someone who knows Mooneys to do the prebuy PERIOD! A good prebuy is an eyeopener for you and the owner!

Unless you want to spend a lot of money for a few kts speed forget all the mods or buy one with them already installed. It's just bragging rights in the end. If you have to go faster get an E model.

Stock C is the best bang for the buck.

[Seth]

You know, not to start thread drift, however, with the money you're looking to spend on updating this C with the mods and avionics, at the end of the day you'll only have a C if you want to unload it.  It will be an AMAZING C, but you'll get top dollar C money.  If you were to purchase a J, repaint, redo the interior, not worry about outside mods, and then do the avionics, you'll at least have a better chance of getting money back at the end of the day.

 

I was going to upgrade my F model, and instead of spending the $50-$60k it would take do so, I sold it, and purchased a newer air frame with mods I was looking for.  If I ever need to unload the aircraft, I'll get back more than if I had upgraded my F, as an F is still an F at the end of the day, even if it is better than much of the fleet out there.

 

There is a J for sale that need refurb work for $45k, which is way low for a J, and about the top you'll ever sell a C.  It may need engine work - I haven't looked at it carefully and I know you want to avoid that.

 

With the mods you are looking at in very rough numbers which include labor - now if you are doing the labor yourself that changes things:

 

1.  Paint (7-11) so let's say 8,500

2.  interior (3-7) so lets say 5,000

3.  Autopilot (if installing a new AP, not refurbishing a Britain) let's say 15,000

4.  Tank reseal/bladders:  $9,000

5.  Aspen x 2, 430w, ADS-B transponder and other work . . . $25,000

6.  Windshield Mod - $7,500

7.  New side glass to match - $2500

8.  Cowl closure item plus install:  $2000

9.  Corrosion repair (they'll be a bit somewhere) $1500

10.  Brake Caliper reversal - $1000

11.  Flap/Aileron gap seals - $2500

12.  Dorsal fin fairing - $1500

13.  Wing root fairing - $1500

14.  Johnson bar block replacement/bungees:  $1000

 

Total:  $82,500 plus the price of the plane (with a newer engine, even a bad looking C with a good air frame will be at least $25,000).  So . . 107,500 all in for a plane you can sell for $45,000.  Lower the all in price by $10,000-$13,000 if you install/overhaul a Britain autopilot instead of a new AP.

 

 

If you purchase a M20J, a lot of the mods you don't have to worry about and there will be less avionics work as the panel will already by in a six pack with newer radios and such.

 

1.  Paint (7-11) so let's say 8,500

2.  interior (3-7) so lets say 5,000

3.  Autopilot - should have one - but you may have to fix it or hook it back up - 1000

4.  Tank reseal/bladders:  $9,000

5.  Aspen x 2, 430w, ADS-B transponder and other work . . . $22,000 (less panel reconfiguration)

6.  Windshield Mod - not needed

7.  New side glass to match - not needed

8.  Cowl closure item plus install:  not needed

9.  Corrosion repair (they'll be a bit somewhere) $1000 (less)

10.  Brake Caliper reversal - not needed

11.  Flap/Aileron gap seals - not needed

12.  Dorsal fin fairing - not needed

13.  Wing root fairing - not needed

14.  Landing gear work:  $1000

 

Total:   $47,500

 

So, if you buy that low priced J for $45 k, you are in for 91,500 for a plane with those avionics and that shape you can sell for $100,000.   If you buy a better example of a J that needs avionics work, paint, and interior, with a good engine more realistically for $60,000+, then you are at 107,500 for a plan you can sell for about $100,000, which actually makes sense.

 

Newer air frame, better capability, unfortunately no Johnson bar if you want that., better back seat and much higher resale value.

 

This is why I sold my F and with the upgrade money I would have used purchased a modified M20J Missile 300.  

 

Don't get me wrong, the C is an AMAZING plane and great bank for the buck, maybe one of the best in General Aviation.  Just listening to what you want to do, that's my suggestion as it will be similar money in, and you'll have your value in the plane at the end of the day.  

 

I would love to see a C come back however if you really want the C.  If you plan to fly in IFR often, you may want to go E for the fuel injected engine vs carbureted.  Or even an F clone of a J that has a Johnson bar when all is said and done.

 

C- 180 HP carbureted - short body

E- 200 HP fuel injected - short body

F - 200 HP fuel injected - mid length body

J - 200 HP fuel injected - mid length body - aerodynamically cleaned up (most of the mods for the C bring you to the J body except length)

 

Welcome to the Mooney Family!

 

-Seth

[Gaelens]

Thanks Seth, that's more than I've learned researching and it's very helpful in my hunt for a mooney! Looking at the all American aircraft stock I see some Rangers, but depending on who you ask there aren't any real clear specs on them. Do any of you have experience with them (speed, fuel, maint. Etc)? What is different about a ranger versus a regular c?

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[carusoam]

Marketing names....

Try to find the list of all Mooney's built through the years....each year they got some upgrades.

Some added value and were added back to older airframes.

65 got rectangular windows...

Later planes got elongated rudder.

Somewhere along the way cowl flaps became fixed.

Long list of small improvements...

The nicest things have been added later on like WAAS and Aspen....

Best regards,

-a-

[ryoder]

Here is my conservative refurb plan

Stuff I have done

My non 201 one piece windshield was installed for 1500 total

Wing tanks resealed for 2000

Second nav com brand new for 1850

New starter switch for 500

Paint looks good and shiny. Leave it as is and repaint sections as they age.

Steam gauges work well. Replace when part 23 rewrite is done.

Interior is clean, fix anything broken and replace all,fabrics, repaint plastic and total investment is 1000.

Bypass all speed mods.

Replace any airworthiness items immediately.

Field overhaul engine when a cylinder goes bad. Plan on 12k for this.

Install leather seats from Airtex for around 2500 can't remember actual price

Get prop hub inspections every 100 hours at 300 each.

[Bob_Belville]

Marketing names....

Try to find the list of all Mooney's built through the years....each year they got some upgrades.

-a-

Rangers are just M20Cs from 1968-78..(They were Mark 21 before that.)

 

http://www.mooneyevents.com/chrono.htm

[Hank]

I like my Mooney Ranger much more than my Ford Ranger . . . I'm just sayin . . .front seat room is virtually identical, gas mileage is similar, the experience is completely different! Even my wife likes traveling by Mooney. But she has had to learn to pack smaller and lighter.

[gsxrpilot]

Maybe I should clarify... my C is not for sale ;-)  

 

But it's a good example of a well equipped model. Mine came with records and receipts for well over $100K in upgrades and refurbishment over the years. All of that done by previous owners and then acquired by me for less than $50K. As has been said many times, find the airplane that has already been refurbished and equipped the way you like by previous owners. I estimated that for every $1 I spent buying a plane previously upgraded, was equal to $4 it would cost me to do the same upgrades myself.

[Bob_Belville]

Maybe I should clarify... my C is not for sale ;-)  

 

But it's a good example of a well equipped model. Mine came with records and receipts for well over $100K in upgrades and refurbishment over the years. All of that done by previous owners and then acquired by me for less than $50K. As has been said many times, find the airplane that has already been refurbished and equipped the way you like by previous owners. I estimated that for every $1 I spent buying a plane previously upgraded, was equal to $4 it would cost me to do the same upgrades myself.

Very true. Hopefully the market will firm but for the last several years our planes have not held value as they did years ago. My nice M20E is no doubt worth quite a bit less than what I've put into it over the past 3 years. It is not for sale. 

[Seth]

George Perry had a great thread with information on purchasing a Mooney and the diffrences between the model numbers.  Does anyone have that thread link readily available?

 

-Seth

[Seth]

Thanks Seth, that's more than I've learned researching and it's very helpful in my hunt for a mooney! Looking at the all American aircraft stock I see some Rangers, but depending on who you ask there aren't any real clear specs on them. Do any of you have experience with them (speed, fuel, maint. Etc)? What is different about a ranger versus a regular c?

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I know refurb and making the plane yours is the main mission, with a clean air frame and strong/newer engine, but what is your true mission?

 

You have the the Malibu available for when you want to go long XC and carry a load.  What is the mission of this plane?  2 seats most of the time?  IFR a lot?  Four seats and room?  Gras strips?  I'll help us give you better advice if we know the mission.  

 

Thanks!

 

-Seth

[Gaelens]

More for short hops (400 miles or less) with one-two pax, or if pops has the Malibu out. Grass fields would be a fun/new experience that I would want to do, and ifr is an important one to me. I know most of the old mooneys don't have fiki which is fine, but ifr is a must to me.

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[Seth]

We have one member on here who takes his C into short grass/rocky/dirt strips all the time - very experienced pilot.

 

Many fly the C/E maybe an F into some grass strips

 

The rest don't.  Prop clearance is not huge on the Mooney to begin with, but with the J, you have the clamshell gear doors that get torn up on grass runways.  So if you will go into one often, remove the extra doors.  That's not as much of an issue with the C, E, or F.

 

For those types of missions, the C and E are very economical.  If you want more room in the backseat and maybe a little better stability, go with the F.  All the aerodynamic updates, go with the J.  The rudder was made longer (I forget which year) sometime in the 1960s - all F's have the bigger rudder.  It's the earlier C and E's that have the smaller rudder.  If you fly a lot of weather, then maybe you'll want the larger rudder for more crosswind control.

 

You can get TKS on a J model if you want, but I don't think it is FIKI.  Most of the FIKI aircraft are long body Mooney's (M, R, S, TN).  However some of the mid bodies can get TKS - J & K.

 

With your missions stated, I better understand why you are looking at a C - great bank for the buck.  If you are looking at 1 passenger - C or E (pilot and passenger).  You are looking at 2 passengers  (pilot plus 2 = 3), the backseat of the F makes a big difference.  The cockpit room is similar in all Mooney's.  The J however has standard six pack alignment and other avionics that you'd have to add or find one that's been updated on the C, E, and F.

 

Have you flown in the Mooney yet?  I know you were trying to set up some rides with locals.

 

-Seth

[Hank]

My 1970 C left the factory with a standard 6-pack. The instruments have a slight curve to them, following the top of the panel. This permits maximum cramming of instruments compared to wasting space making the six exactly level all the way across.

The rudder was lengthened some time on the mid-60s. I've never had too much crosswind, even Rapid City was good although it was the strongest id landed in at the time, and very gusty. Grass fields are an option. I don't go to back country or unimproved strips, but search for "piperpainter" and his red/orange M20 C on YouTube, it's amazing!

Being short, my plane is supposedly less stable in turbulence, but my non-rated wife has only complained once when a single bounce made her hit the ceiling. Now I ask if her seatbelt is buckled AND tight . . . It's a very good IFR platform, and the DPE for my Instrument checkride told me afterwards, "this is the perfect plane to get your Commercial certificate." He is a recently-retired commanding officer of the WV Air National Guard, and I had demonstrated being nice to the Lear behind me while under the foggles and accelerated to 130 mph on an ILS, slowing back to 90knots (105 mph) by the FAF.

Don't let anyone convince you that a short body Mooney (A through E) is not capable, won't carry people, etc. I've taken three husky guys on a 2-hour flight along the coast to Kitty Hawk in July, then direct back to the beachside grass strip behind a line of storms. Nobody got sick . . .

Whatever you buy, get a thorough pre-inspection, and transition training from an instructor knowledgable in that make and model. Then fly accurately, precisely and on speed, and you'll do fine.

[ryoder]

My 1970 C left the factory with a standard 6-pack. The instruments have a slight curve to them, following the top of the panel. This permits maximum cramming of instruments compared to wasting space making the six exactly level all the way across.

The rudder was lengthened some time on the mid-60s. I've never had too much crosswind, even Rapid City was good although it was the strongest id landed in at the time, and very gusty. Grass fields are an option. I don't go to back country or unimproved strips, but search for "piperpainter" and his red/orange M20 C on YouTube, it's amazing!

Being short, my plane is supposedly less stable in turbulence, but my non-rated wife has only complained once when a single bounce made her hit the ceiling. Now I ask if her seatbelt is buckled AND tight . . . It's a very good IFR platform, and the DPE for my Instrument checkride told me afterwards, "this is the perfect plane to get your Commercial certificate." He is a recently-retired commanding officer of the WV Air National Guard, and I had demonstrated being nice to the Lear behind me while under the foggles and accelerated to 130 mph on an ILS, slowing back to 90knots (105 mph) by the FAF.

Don't let anyone convince you that a short body Mooney (A through E) is not capable, won't carry people, etc. I've taken three husky guys on a 2-hour flight along the coast to Kitty Hawk in July, then direct back to the beachside grass strip behind a line of storms. Nobody got sick . . .

Whatever you buy, get a thorough pre-inspection, and transition training from an instructor knowledgable in that make and model. Then fly accurately, precisely and on speed, and you'll do fine.

Ooh very modern panel:) Big improvement over my 65. I like the carb temp too. Airplanes grow on me and my 65 certainly has. Of course last week I had a dream that I stole 1476U from my flight school. Smuggled it out with the transponder off. I guess that one has grown on me too.

[dcrogers11]

Where are you located?  There may be someone on MS nearby that would show you some of their planes.  If DFW area, I'd let you fly in mine.

 

Don

[gsxrpilot]

I understand he's in Austin, as am I and have offered to let him fly my C.

[C-GHIJ]

Not everyone can afford 100K for an airplane.  It really depends on what you want to use the airplane for.  If it is just fun flying with a bit of XC, a rock solid stock older Mooney fits the bill perfectly.  Yes you can spend thousands and thousands on upgrades, but are they really necessary?  I'll fly a few knots slower and get there 10 minutes after one that's all decked out but my cash outlay is reasonable (which keeps my wife happy) and I get to fly an extra 10 minutes.....is that what it's al about..

[ryoder]

Not everyone can afford 100K for an airplane.  It really depends on what you want to use the airplane for.  If it is just fun flying with a bit of XC, a rock solid stock older Mooney fits the bill perfectly.  Yes you can spend thousands and thousands on upgrades, but are they really necessary?  I'll fly a few knots slower and get there 10 minutes after one that's all decked out but my cash outlay is reasonable (which keeps my wife happy) and I get to fly an extra 10 minutes.....is that what it's al about..

I like flying and looking out the window at beautiful beaches and dolphins. I would like it even more with a new interior and engine. The fancy autopilot and glass panel and WAAS gps won't enhance my vfr experience. Since those items are super expensive I'll just pass and fly IFR with DME and vor.

[Seth]

You can get a great Mooney for $40k, and over time smartly upgrade and end up with maybe $60k in the plane before deciding to move up to something else.  Or keep it forever.

 

The Mooney may be one of the biggest bangs for the buck in aviation - especially the C, E, and F.

 

But if you are going to paint, redo the interior, add speed mods, and drop $30k into the panel, it may make sense to start with a J so you have a chance at getting something back.

 

 

-Seth