new pilot looking to upgrade planes

[oldrockfan]

new pilot here and new to the forum. I would like some honest feedback from you seasoned owners. I am a new pilot (4 hours from completing my ppl) and currently own a piper Cherokee 140. The Cherokee has been a great plane to learn on and is fun to fly. The two issues with it are

1) it has useful load of under 800lbs so even when fueled to tabs... it is just a 3 person plane.

2) it only cruises at 105-110knots which makes longer trips pretty slow.

 

I knew when I bought the Cherokee that it would be my starter plane and I would want to upgrade once I got my PPL. So now the question is would a mooney be too much of a jump in performance from a Cherokee 140? Also, what are the real world specs on the mooneys? I'm looking for a plane that can do no less than 125knots in cruise and also can carry 4 people when needed even though usually just wife and me or me solo on business trips.

 

I have been doing some preliminary searching on mooneys and don't think I can swing the cost of a J model so probably going to limit myself to the C-G with preference to the F-G so I get the extra room without the big jump in price. I was wondering how much I should plan on spending on annuals for the mooney. My Cherokee is dirt cheap with basic annual running about $1000. 

Thanks in advance! 

edited to add: what should I expect to spend on a C, E, F/G with mid time engines?

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Oldrock...

All are good...

Short body

B,C,D,E,

Mid body

F,G,J,K,

Long body

M,R,S

The beginning of the alphabet is lower cost than the end of the alphabet...

Do you have a preference for...

Carburetors or fuel injection?

Normally aspirated or turbo charged?

Pressurized cabin turbine?

Do you prefer...

Factory built with few mods.

Increased power by known hardware suppliers.

Really increased power by the best.

Do you intend to fly...

VFR or IFR?

Do you have ant requirements like a particular mission that you want to cover?

Distance to mountain house?

Second house three states away?

Customers up and down the east coast?

Grand children the next state over?

Best regards,

-a-

[oldrockfan]

Ok to use the buzzwords of the flying community... I guess I should have shared more on my mission. Keep in mind, I am brand new to all this flying stuff so still learning but let me post up what I will be using the plane for.

 

I have my own consulting business that travels from the Dallas/fort worth area to other cities in Texas that range from 100-250 miles away. I average 2 longer trips per month so will probably be doing a decent amount of flying the plane solo for business. Wife and I are empty nesters and flying has been a lifelong dream of mine that I am finally getting to do. We plan to do lots of weekend trips but would like to limit flying time to about 3 hours at a time. I have two grown boys and would like to be able to fly all four of us on occasion. Not long distance but maybe 2 hour flights. We also have friends so would like to occasionally be able to fly with friends on weekends.

 

I am not interesting in blazing fast... but like everyone, it would be nice if I could get further in my typical 3 hours flying time. My current Cherokee only gets me 105-110knots in cruise so I would thinking it would be good to get 125-150knots. I'd like to keep cost to purchase and cost to annual down so looking at what would be the best choice for someone on a fairly tight budget of 50k max and cheaper would be better.

[Mcstealth]

It has been said many times, that the C model is a wonderful "first and or Last" airplane. The owners of C's love the simplicity (for a complex single), ruggedness, useful load, and speed. It's utility is a wide envelope of wonderful according to everyone. 

 

That said, no one kicks their F model out of bed because of the extra backseat room.

 

As you know, the C-E-F-G will all out pace the Cherokee, and meet your speed requirements.

 

Annuals? Well, that is a Pandora's Box. How many squawks need fixing before you get to those $2500 annuals you read about?

 

Price? I have watched the C-F market for a while. You can get a heck of a C if you have around $35,000 to $40,000 to work with.

 

You will need 10 grand more for a heck of an E.

[carusoam]

We misuse the word Mission all the time...

I skipped as many abbreviations and contractions too...

Many of us have a similar time limit to our flights. Two hours is ussually good to avoid potty issues.

If the beach house is two hundred miles away flying at 175 kts is pretty good....

If the back seaters have anything to do with your finances, the long body is the best.

F and J are the preferred (by numbers) for four people.

C and E are more of a challenge for full sized adults.

For price guidance...

I like this site...

http://allamericanaircraft.com/Default.htm

There are others...

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

I bought my C just five weeks after my PPL checkride. Useful load is 969, and full fuel is just 312. I sometimes take four people, give rides during Plane Ride Day (the fundraiser for our Pilots Assn), do Young Eagles, and travel with my wife. Most of my flights are 3 hours or less, but having recently moved, all is in flux.

My former base was in WV, with both families in NC and GA; one at 200 nm, the others up to 350 nm or so. Mostly flies around 140 knots, generally 5+ hours' fuel. My longest leg was into the wind, 4.4 hours, landed with 10 gallons left. You'll do fine in Texas, just as I did back and forth over the Appalachians.

My longest four-person flight was two husky guys and two college students. We left a 3500' grass strip,at the beach to buy fuel (W&B limited to 34 gallons), went up the Outer Banks to Kitty Hawk in by out 1-1/2 hours. Then a short hop across the sound for fuel and direct home, behind a line of thunderstorms, back to the same grass strip. Everyone but me swapped seats for every takeoff to minimize discomfort. It kind of depends on the size of the person.

Good luck with your pursuit! There are some for sale here in your price range. For your own sake, get a good Pre-Purchase Inspection, and some good training afterwards. You've got to fly precisely, practice in the Cherokee holding an exact speed in the pattern, whatever speed is your target. Don't get sloppy and allow your speed to vary by 3-5 knots, hold it exactly.

[gsxrpilot]

I have a C and live in Austin, but am frequently in Dallas.  I'd be more than happy to give you a ride in my "high end" C. I started my search with pretty much the exact same mission as you. I'm very happy with the usefulness, practicality, and economy of my C.

[oldrockfan]

thanks guys, can you give me an idea on real world useful loads for the C and F. Also, anyone had one a while so they can share what the average annual has been running on a C or F? I'm thinking the F might be worth the extra money for the extra rear passenger space but I do see some good prices on barnstormers for C-E models so maybe I could live with the cramped back seat to save on purchase price.

[Hank]

Most shops quote around 20 hours to annual a C, plus anything extra you want or they find you need. Owner assist can save money, extend the duration, teach you how the plane is put together and keep you up to date on its condition.

"Wants" add up quickly, and installation can cost more than the item . . .

My useful load with full fuel is me and my favorite 370 lbs of people and stuff. Fuel can be exchanged within limits (I require minimum 1-hour reserve).

[gsxrpilot]

The useful load in my C is 1019 lbs. But this number will vary between aircraft. These models are all old and have been modified many times over the years resulting in widely varying numbers. My one annual was $1900 but this was following a very thorough PPI which addressed all squawks.

 

Remember, YOU don't have to "live with the cramped back seat" as you'll always be in the front left seat. :-)  I flew my C 100 hours in 2014. About 60% were solo, 39% with one other person and only about 4 hours total with anyone in the back seat.  And no one sitting in the back seat ever has any financial interest in the airplane, so I'm not so concerned with their lack of leg room.

 

How tall are you and your other front seat passenger? I'm only 5'9" so there is quite a bit of room behind my seat.  Of course, on long flights, once the autopilot is coupled up and takes over, I usually slide my seat back and stretch out. And with that, the leg room behind me is gone. 

[jkhirsch]

I have an F with manual gear, useful load is 1050.

 

If you plan to have 4 adults in the plane, I posit that you will regret not getting at least an F.

 

I was looking for a high useful load.

 

For insurance, I managed to get a 10 hour dual restriction, which was far better than any AOPA deals.

[oldrockfan]

Paul, I am 6' so space would be tight behind me. Wife on the other hand is only 5' 7" so she could run with seat up. Like you... most of my flying would be either solo or wife and me but I do want the option to fly with 4. A useful of 1000lbs would be fantastic, I was just hoping for 940lbs useful. 

[rbridges]

The useful load in my C is 1019 lbs. But this number will vary between aircraft. These models are all old and have been modified many times over the years resulting in widely varying numbers. My one annual was $1900 but this was following a very thorough PPI which addressed all squawks.

 

Remember, YOU don't have to "live with the cramped back seat" as you'll always be in the front left seat. :-)  I flew my C 100 hours in 2014. About 60% were solo, 39% with one other person and only about 4 hours total with anyone in the back seat.  And no one sitting in the back seat ever has any financial interest in the airplane, so I'm not so concerned with their lack of leg room.

 

How tall are you and your other front seat passenger? I'm only 5'9" so there is quite a bit of room behind my seat.  Of course, on long flights, once the autopilot is coupled up and takes over, I usually slide my seat back and stretch out. And with that, the leg room behind me is gone. 

 

by contrast, my C has gotten heavy over the years and had a useful load south of 900 lbs.  with bladders, I'm around 850 or so.  It's a 3 person plane, but I know Hank has hauled 4 adults around in his.  

 

many people, including myself, transitioned from cherokees.  Not difficult, but you finally have to watch flap speeds.  Unlike the cherokees, a mooney will actually fly faster than max flap speed.  

[oldrockfan]

Re flap speed: funny you said that. The running joke with my instructor was the plane would have to be in a dive for me to get in trouble with flaps 

 

Not bashing the Cherokee though. It is a great plane and I'd keep it if it had a bit more speed and better useful load. In order for me to carry 4 standard people in my Cherokee... I'd have to figure out how to fly without fuel

[Ragsf15e]

I've got an F with a similar useful load to JKHirsch - about 1010lbs useful, so about 630lbs with full fuel (64 gallons).  Of course that's enough fuel to fly for 6+ hours at 135 knots (LOP, 8,000', ~8.5gph)!  You can definitely download some gas, but the backseat isn't that big, and it's difficult to get back there - requires some decent flexibility.  I have had adults back there and they are comfortable behind me (I'm 6'3"), but it's tough for them to get in/out.

 

You can get anywhere between 135 knots and 150 knots true depending on your altitude and where you put the mixture.  Oh yeah, and how many speed mods you have.  I only have the 201 windshield which is nice, but the 201 cowl would be great ($$).  There are lots of other speed mods too.

 

I would expect a squawk free annual to be $2500... anyone ever had one of those?  Expect $3k+ for a "normal" annual.

[jnisley]

Useful load on our F is 898.5, it's quite heavy with Rayjay turbo and onboard oxygen (oxy tank weighs 28 lbs)

Annuals range from $1500-2500 depending on squawks encountered.

[Robert C.]

Four adults in any model Mooney is going to make for short trips.

You may want to look at a Piper Dakota. Most will have about 1100 useful load, can carry 70 (usable) gl of fuel, cruise at about 140-145 kts. Expect 14-16 Gph, easy transition from the Warrior too.

[oldrockfan]

thanks for all the great info so far guys. Re the Dakota: they are beautiful planes but the cost is out of my budget and that fuel burn would be pretty pricey too. One thing I like about the mooneys is that wonderful efficient fuel burn!

[Parker_Woodruff]

M20F would be a great plane for the type of trips and distances you will be flying.

I used to commute a similar distance in a similar speed M20J.

I'm local when you are ready for your transition training...

[Oscar Avalle]

Ok to use the buzzwords of the flying community... I guess I should have shared more on my mission. Keep in mind, I am brand new to all this flying stuff so still learning but let me post up what I will be using the plane for.

 

I have my own consulting business that travels from the Dallas/fort worth area to other cities in Texas that range from 100-250 miles away. I average 2 longer trips per month so will probably be doing a decent amount of flying the plane solo for business. Wife and I are empty nesters and flying has been a lifelong dream of mine that I am finally getting to do. We plan to do lots of weekend trips but would like to limit flying time to about 3 hours at a time. I have two grown boys and would like to be able to fly all four of us on occasion. Not long distance but maybe 2 hour flights. We also have friends so would like to occasionally be able to fly with friends on weekends.

 

I am not interesting in blazing fast... but like everyone, it would be nice if I could get further in my typical 3 hours flying time. My current Cherokee only gets me 105-110knots in cruise so I would thinking it would be good to get 125-150knots. I'd like to keep cost to purchase and cost to annual down so looking at what would be the best choice for someone on a fairly tight budget of 50k max and cheaper would be better.

Oldrock, welcome to the site! You will enjoy many interesting, and even sometimes funny, comments and suggestions. Reading your post it reminded me of my first plane, a PA 28 140 (N55470) I believe it is still out there, although I understand that it suffered one or two accidents after I sold it. The PA 28 140 is a great plane, it is forgiving enough for you to learn, but it can also take you places. I used my PA 28 140 to fly from Washington DC to New Orleans... it was a long flight but fun. 

 

I currently own a M20C (1970 model). I love my plane. I believe it will be my last one... (after I did all the mods I could do). But let me share with you some thoughts. It is not a 4 people plane. Although it is a fast plane, efficient and wonderful to fly, the backseats are for smaller people (basically kids...) specially if you plan a longer XC flight. That being said, if you want to load the plane and fill her up... forget about it you are over gross for sure. However, if you fly up to three you can have a lot of fun.

 

I flew my M20C from Lancaster PA to Guatemala City, where I am spending some time on a temporary basis. I fly the plane all around Central America and, although it does not have a turbo, I normally climb above 10K feet without any major problems... (well, it takes just some time). I also take the plane to nice grass runways. 

 

Compared to the PA28, you just have to get used to be more disciplined with speed management. The M20C flies nicely, but you have to make sure that you nail the speeds down when you land otherwise you will float forever.

 

Cost, it will cost you more than 1000, but unless the plane is in a bad shape, it should not break the bank. 

[Danb]

If you need range consider long range tanks, if not don't...that way you will  not be handcuffed for distance..I'v traveled 1300 miles with 35 gal left..tail winds help...

[garysuperpilot]

I owned a Cherokee 140 for nine years, flew regular 400 mile trips and thoroughly enjoyed the plane. Me and my son both got our instrument rating in the plane but ultimately I needed more speed and useful load. A year and a half ago we found a 67 m20F model and it has been a great move. Cherokee 105 knots @9gph. Useful load 800. Mooney 145knots 10gph. Useful load 1120. Not to mention the other advantages. The one thing I wanted to mention was on a trip back from Fort Lauderdale to our home airport at new bern nc we were about 20 miles out from new bern. Controller advised there was a Dakota at 1000 feet above us enroute to the same airport at same heading also 20 miles out. I did not see the plane and I figured I'd slow up a bit and be number two. A minute later the controller advised traffic no factor, you are overtaking the traffic by about 30 knots. Now he may have been throttled back but I was still pretty excited to be flying a Mooney. Happy hunting.

[oldrockfan]

cool to hear so many of you did similar jumps from Cherokee to mooney. Makes me feel a little more at ease about it to hear others did it successfully. Re speed management: I guess I better start working on that now. The Cherokee is so forgiving about speed at landing that I probably haven't focused on speed as much as I should but I will start working on that to see if I can tighten things up. Regardless of what I trade up to... speed management is always a good thing.

 

I re-read thru the responses this morning and really appreciate all the great advice. Honestly, I think I could be happy with a C, E, or F model. Granted it will be tight in the back but like someone else shared... I'd say 90% of my flying will be solo or just wife and me. Now if I can find a good deal on an F model... it does give that extra space for the back seat which would be nice. The key for me is finding a plane with a good useful load and a mid time engine. So my ideal plane would have at least 940lbs and a mid time engine. I am not too wrapped up in fancy panels... just need a basic IFR capable plane and my Cherokee has a garmin 496 which I really like (will probably move to the new plane). 

 

So now for the grind of watching the adds. Finding a good deal on a plane is a pain. It took me almost 6 months to find my Cherokee and I did prebuys on two planes that I ended up rejecting before buying my current plane. It was worth the hassle though and my Cherokee has been a great one. Buying a plane is a big decision and this next one will probably be the last I ever buy so want to find a great one.

 

In the spirit of full disclosure, I also have the piper archer II on my short list. Not as fast as the mooneys but fixed gear plane with useful load over 1000lbs and cruse of 125knots. The selling point for an archer is it is basically just a bigger and faster Cherokee so a simple transition and cheap to maintain. I'll be watching adds for both and get the best plane I can for the money. Oh and one final thing... a customer of mine in west texas has owned a mooney for years and he has already told me that a mooney is my best choice

[garysuperpilot]

I too was worried about the transition from the Cherokee to the mooney. Yes, you have to pay extra attention with the mooney but I found the mooney very easy to land, just watch the speed like everyone will tell you. No regrets here and I figured this will be my last aircraft purchase. Might as well make it a good one.

[Bob_Belville]

Summary:

 

Models: For the budget minded your choices are the C (180 hp, short body), E (200 hp, short body), F 200 hp, mid body). You might find an odd B, D (converted to retractable) ,or G but most of the vintage fleet is the C/E/F models.

 

Speed: The 180 hp models should be at least 135 kts. The 200 hp models at least 145kts. Real world cruise. An E which has lower gross and useful load is the fastest of the 3. (Many of these 40-50 year old models have been modified with improvements originally introduced with the J (201). Pay attention to what has been done by the previous owners to any plane you find, many of the desirable mods were expensive and some are no longer available.)  

 

Maintenance costs: With a retractable gear and constant speed prop the annual inspection will be a few hundred dollars more than the Cherokee 140 you're flying but the annual itself will be not much over $1000. Any airplane has a lot of systems that are expensive to replace/repair so those costs are hard to predict. There are plenty of horror stories here about unexpected repairs, particularly in the first year or two. But the Mooneys are extremely well built and if well maintained are not expensive relative to other brands.

 

Useful load, passenger comfort. The F introduced in 1967 got a bump in gross weight to 2740 vs. the 2575 of the C & E. The empty weight increased with the added 10" length but the net useful load give the F great useful load though the fuel capacity was increased as well so that the full tanks usable is back in line with the short bodies. If as you tell us you expect to be mostly you or you and your wife with occasional back seat passengers for a legs of 2 hours or less I would contend that any of these models would be fine. FWIW, very few light single engine planes of any brand are within W&B with seats full of adults & full fuel tanks.

 

Shopping for a vintage Mooney: As you know these planes are relative rare, at least compared to Cherokees and C172, but there were thousands of all 3 models built in the '60s. It might take a while to find the one for you. You might have to kiss a few pigs because what a plane has been through over 45 years in service will vary a lot. Most of us would contend there is no practical limit to the airframe life but neglect and abuse will take its toll. A '66 M20E, like my favorite Mooney, might be found for $25,000 but with a low time engine, a modern panel, good pant and interior, and a good history of maintenance might be a fair deal @ $75,000. In general, everything being equal, a qualification that will not exist for planes this old, you should expect to pay quite a bit more for an M20E than a C. An F will on average be somewhat higher than an E. But there will be considerable overlap in the price spreads.

 

Transition: Many here transitioned from 140s or C150/172s to Mooneys with low time. These planes are straight forward with no ugly flying characteristics. But stepping up involves quite a lot to learn so transition training should be taken seriously. In the end we would predict you will be very happy to enter our world. A Mooney is a delight to fly and a pleasure to own.