Just learned my C is junk

[steingar]

2 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Wow! Talk about necro-threads! 

The story has legs because it's so apocryphal, and it's all of our worst nightmares.

[RobertGary1]

The interesting thing to me in this thread is that the guy said it would cost $15,000 to repair?? To me that's just a bad annual, not life threatening. Over 20ish years of Mooney ownership I've had some $15,000 annuals. Had an unexpected engine disintegration that cost me $40,000. I think it speaks more to trying to buy a plane with a loan and stretching your finances. While you may be paying new BMW money you're still getting a 50-60 year old machine.

-Robert

[aviatoreb]

12 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

The interesting thing to me in this thread is that the guy said it would cost $15,000 to repair?? To me that's just a bad annual, not life threatening. Over 20ish years of Mooney ownership I've had some $15,000 annuals. Had an unexpected engine disintegration that cost me $40,000. I think it speaks more to trying to buy a plane with a loan and stretching your finances. While you may be paying new BMW money you're still getting a 50-60 year old machine.

-Robert

I put a sad face response, because I agree with you - 15k is just a worse than average annual, but to be expected sometimes.  

[steingar]

$15K was a lot more money in 2014.

[McMooney]

 

i can understand an engine grenading but wow, 15k is a worse than average annual?  what kinda messed up maintenance is that ?

i

[Guest]

Define what portions were the Annual.  I’m adding an EDM930 to my Comanche during this Annual.  I look at it as an upgrade being done with the Annual not as a result of it.  Same goes for the new headliner and new one piece windshield.

The Annual is around 35 hours of work, anything above that is repairs and upgrades.

Clarence

[Hank]

24 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

The Annual is around 35 hours of work . . . .

Wow! I can't afford a Piper. Three different IAs charged 18-20 hours for my annual; sadly, those three don't like owner assistance.

One took out my wheel bearings, cleaned them, decided they needed to be replaced, reassembled with the old ones and took the plane off jacks. He then wanted me to pay 5 hours labor to replace them. Said "no thanks, I can replace them myself in less time."

The way to replace wheel bearings is while the plane is on jacks and you see that they are worn. Order / buy new ones, put them in, reassemble and set down after swinging the gear. If I'm there helping out, it's an easy call. 

[A64Pilot]

Money is relative, some will drop $5K on a night out and think nothing of it, and some will pay that to go fishing.

Then others $50 is a nice night out and fishing is free.

[larryb]

It is pretty easy to have an expensive annual without engine work. Add up a prop overhaul, new donuts, new tires, new fuel pump and all the regular nit picking squawks.

[RobertGary1]

6 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Define what portions were the Annual.  I’m adding an EDM930 to my Comanche during this Annual.  I look at it as an upgrade being done with the Annual not as a result of it.  Same goes for the new headliner and new one piece windshield.

The Annual is around 35 hours of work, anything above that is repairs and upgrades.

Clarence

I’m assuming slightly worse than regular repairs. One 15k annual was at a Mooney service center with a ton of little $500-$800 things that just added up. Today I do my own maintenance but an engine disintegration still cost me $40k by the time metal choked up the prop, govr, etc, no engine core value etc. 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Hank said:

Wow! I can't afford a Piper. Three different IAs charged 18-20 hours for my annual; sadly, those three don't like owner assistance.

One took out my wheel bearings, cleaned them, decided they needed to be replaced, reassembled with the old ones and took the plane off jacks. He then wanted me to pay 5 hours labor to replace them. Said "no thanks, I can replace them myself in less time."

The way to replace wheel bearings is while the plane is on jacks and you see that they are worn. Order / buy new ones, put them in, reassemble and set down after swinging the gear. If I'm there helping out, it's an easy call. 

Three to four man days of labour for a high performance single retractable airplane is not unusual.  We have to swing the compass every year, ship the ELT out for recertification, etc.  It all depends on what you’re used to, are you’re guys research AD’s, S/B’s, S/L’s?  I wouldn’t touch a Mooney Annual for two days of labour.

Clarence

[Hank]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

Three to four man days of labour for a high performance single retractable airplane is not unusual.  We have to swing the compass every year, ship the ELT out for recertification, etc.  It all depends on what you’re used to, are you’re guys research AD’s, S/B’s, S/L’s?  I wouldn’t touch a Mooney Annual for two days of labour.

Canadian requirements are tough! I've never done either of those things,  but ELT batteries are tested and expiration dates checked every year and replaced as needed. Compass roses to swing compasses are pretty rare things, even scarcer than VOT signals to test VOR receivers with.

[A64Pilot]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

are you’re guys research AD’s, S/B’s, S/L’s?  I wouldn’t touch a Mooney Annual for two days of labour.

Clarence

That’s the thing that people sometimes don’t understand when they change IA’s, the new guy has to research the aircraft all the way back to the day it was manufactured.

‘If he or she did the annual last year, then they only have one year to research.

Try as hard as you can and you may still miss an AD, for instance the airplane my have one circuit breaker of a different brand, and years ago that circuit breaker or switch or any other small part may have gotten an AD issued against it.

‘Even with good software, and I don’t know how you could do without to be truthful, but even with the software, it takes more time than many realize, and we haven’t even looked at the airplane yet.

If I have never seen the airplane, it’s getting a deeper look, this thread explains why.

‘But I’m having a hard time understanding a 15K annual on an well cared airplane myself, now if we throw any kind of avionics upgrade, then yes easily.

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

That’s the thing that people sometimes don’t understand when they change IA’s, the new guy has to research the aircraft all the way back to the day it was manufactured.

I think most people keep the AD list with their records.   I don't think I personally know any IAs that keep the AD list to themselves, and I'd hope people would not use an IA that does that.

 

[A64Pilot]

The AD lists AD’s that may affect the aircraft and the resolution of them, at least the ones whoever filled out the list knows about.

‘It doesn’t list any AD’s that may have been missed of course and those are the ones that will continue to be missed if you go off others work. 

I’ve found AD’s over 50 years old that weren’t complied with, some pretty important like structural doublers on rudder spars etc 

You apparently didn’t understand by your assertion of an IA keeping the AD list.

 

[EricJ]

7 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

You apparently didn’t understand by your assertion of an IA keeping the AD list.

So were you just complaining that a new IA has to match the AD search to what's on an existing list?   That's not that big of a deal, imho.  It's also the sort of thing that an owner can easily do if they're worried about it.

[A64Pilot]

Really, researching AD’s on the aircraft and every component on the aircraft for the last 50 years isn’t a big deal, as in takes hours to do?

What I am saying is take an older aircraft to an IA to have an Annual completed and if he hasn't completed an Annual before on that aircraft, then he has several hours more work to do than if he did last years Annual, that shouldn’t be hard to understand.

You stated that all he had to do was check the AD list in the aircraft records. If an IA does that, then they just took ownership and liability for all of the IA’s that came before him, actually you do that, its inescapable, so therefore you check their work, but once you have done it there is no need fo go back to the aircraft’s birth day every year.

Point is on an aircraft that I don’t know, one that I didn’t do last years Annual on is going to require considerably more hours than one I did the Annual on last year.

When an IA buys off an aircraft on an Annual, he is a certifying the whole aircraft from its birthday until the day he signs it off, but not the future.

‘When he signs something off as an A&P, he is certifying his work and only his work from that day onward.

 

How can an owner easily check every component on an aircraft for AD’s? Tell me,make my life easier.

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by A64Pilot

[Guest]

AD record keeping can be made easier when you have a dedicated log book.  Our engine and propeller logs also have a dedicated section in the back for relative AD’s.  It doesn’t eliminate the need to research the ADs but does make keeping track of them easier

Clarence

[EricJ]

5 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Really, researching AD’s on the aircraft and every component on the aircraft for the last 50 years isn’t a big deal, as in takes hours to do?

Even using the janky FAA site it is pretty easy to search ADs.   Using a subscription site like many IAs use it is easier.   I've only ever used the FAA site and don't find it bad at all.  (Edit:  We used the airresearch site almost exclusively in school, so I have used that as well.)  I did my airplane, engine, and prop, and accessories and compared it against the existing list.   If an IA finds that to be a barrier, I think I need to find a different IA. 

5 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Point is on an aircraft that I don’t know, one that I didn’t do last years Annual on is going to require considerably more hours than one I did the Annual on last year.

I thought you said you're not an IA now?

5 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

How can an owner easily check every component on an aircraft for AD’s? Tell me,make my life easier.

The FAA AD search site is accessible to anyone, just like IAs.   So it is the same resource used by IAs that aren't using a subscription service like airresearch.com.   Any owner can use it the same way IAs do to search all of the ADs applicable to any aircraft, engine, propeller, or accessory, but you already know that, right?   I found it pretty easy to use.

Edited July 3, 2021 by EricJ

[bmcconnaha]

Well, after reading this thread, maybe I missed it somehow, but did the OPs plane ever fly again? 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, bmcconnaha said:

Well, after reading this thread, maybe I missed it somehow, but did the OPs plane ever fly again? 

I searched the N number awhile ago, it’s still registered to him, no idea if it’s flying or not.

Clarence

[chriscalandro]

When I bought my airplane I pulled the ad list for the airframe, motor, and prop from the free FAA site. 
 

Why anyone would keep (to use your terrible example) a CB with an AD vs replacing it for 15-20$ is beyond me. 
 

The whole process took maybe an hour for the entire airplane. Ive had 3 IAs in my ownership and none of them charged more than an hour for “book work”.  
 

I would go ahead and never renew your IA as most of the stuff you post here is a bunch of wrong BS, and I don’t understand how anyone in the world would ever trust you with their airplane. 
 

Also, to comment on something you said earlier - an annual and a prebuy are 2 very different things. An annual does not cover all the items I would want in a prebuy and means nothing to me when looking at an airplane I’m interested in purchasing. 

Edited July 3, 2021 by chriscalandro

[N201MKTurbo]

I’m pretty new to this IA thing. I’ve only done 5 annuals so far, 2 airplanes twice. The Mooney doesn’t need annuals anymore, but I still need to do AD searches. 
 

I keep 2 lists for each airplane. The AD list and the recurring AD list. They are in Excel files, so I keep the  files and give the owners the printouts. The first year takes a couple of hours to do the research and enter the info into the spreadsheet, but after that you just need to do the deltas and it doesn’t take long at all.

[1980Mooney]

On 6/28/2021 at 8:01 AM, M20F-1968 said:

I sued 2 A&P's in the Dallas area and won, but collected nothing.  One claimed bankruptcy.  The other has been avoiding the judgement and is crooked as hell.  If you PM me privately I can tell you one who is still working privately that should be avoided at Dallas Executive.  Tx is a debtor's state and it is difficult to collect.

John Breda

I assume that your lawyer does not work for free so I assume you are out even more money plus time in court.  Sounds like "lose-lose" or "only the attorney wins"

[A64Pilot]

You still don’t get it, no one would keep a CB or other device with an AD against it, Owner doesn’t know about it because the IA missed it, if you think airplanes don’t fly around all of the time with open AD’s that the owner doesn’t know about, your disillusioned.

The motor, prop and airframe are only a part of the aircraft, there are many more parts.

When the new IA signs off the Annual, and the AD is discovered later, it’s the last IA that did the Annual that is held responsible, not any of the previous IA’s.

‘So a prudent IA will research a new to them aircraft back today one, you for some reason refuse to understand that. 

Edited July 3, 2021 by A64Pilot