Prop not cycling

[CWM20f]

Just got the engine back in from overhaul. Everything looked good on run up except prop would not cycle. Checked everything - still nothing. Took it on takeoff run and it looked good so up we went and prop worked perfect. 1 hour later back on the ground and prop will not cycle. Second flight same result works in flight but not on run up before or after.

Oil pressure is in green and at 68lbs in flight. It's a 67F with IO-360 A1A

[AndyFromCB]

How about talking to a mechanic and not flying until then. Just an idea. Seriously. WTF.

[AndyFromCB]

You do understand the idea behind a run up?Yes? If things don't work, you don't go. Especially on a freshly overhauled engine. No wonder our insurance rates are what they are.

[orionflt]

astelmaszek was a little harsh but 100% correct, if the engine/prop is not operating properly don't go flying! you could be dealing with an internal leak, faulty governor, It could have been an external leak the didn't show up during previous runs. the prop is controlled by oil from your oil system, and any issues with that can scrap your engine quickly and make for a very bad day.

 

Brian

[Rhumbline]

I'd have been a bit less vituperative but the first respondent is correct.  That's definitely a show-stopper and deserves the attention of the professionals you paid to put the thing back together. 

[CWM20f]

First off I am in contact with my mechanic however it's a 45 min drive for him and he is a busy man. Just thought someone on here has had this happen and could shed some light. Second the takeoff run was to bring pressures up and when that brought the prop on line we thought problem solved. As I said its a new engine so the luxury of long ground run ups at high rpms is off the table unless cooking the cylinders is what you are into.......that is WTF......

[Rhumbline]

I am often amazed at the number of folks who visit this and other forums for direction on serious maintenance issues before, apparently, having discussed the matter with a qualified mechanic. The latter is the first thing I do. Am I a kook?

[Rhumbline]

Your response beat my most recent CWM20f, so please disregard.

[CWM20f]

Mechanic was on sight for first flight ... As I said we thought problem solved and he went home. I appreciate the advice from all of u and the comments from astelmaszek sent my blood pressure over the top - this has been a 6 month ordeal with the OH and I'm just looking for insight not smart ass comments.

[N9453V]

The prop governor is required equipment for your airplane and flying with it non-functional without a ferry permit is a violation of the FAR's. That being said, if it's not leaking oil, the danger is probably minimal since it would default to the high RPM position and your engine is certified for continuous operation at 2700 RPM, however, it's still not a good idea to fly without it brolen since you have no idea what's causing the problem.

 

As for what's causing it, I'd start by checking if the prop governor control cable is connected to the governor. If it is and the governor is properly attached, it would likely need to be removed for inspection.

 

Which engine overhaul shop did you use? And was the governor overhauled as well? I recently went through an overhaul and the shop installed the governor before doing the test run to verify installation and proper operation.

 

-Andrew

[orionflt]

First off I am in contact with my mechanic however it's a 45 min drive for him and he is a busy man. Just thought someone on here has had this happen and could shed some light. Second the takeoff run was to bring pressures up and when that brought the prop on line we thought problem solved. As I said its a new engine so the luxury of long ground run ups at high rpms is off the table unless cooking the cylinders is what you are into.......that is WTF......

Not to beat on you, but if your oil pressure was not up in the proper range during run up you should definatly not have gone flying, especially since the engine was just overhauled. lack of oil pressure will destroy a new engine as it is trying to break in and seat the new components. as for your mechanic being 45 min away and busy....is it worth 25K not to call him? 

[orionflt]

ok, read your post that posted while i was writing mine....why wold your mechanic send you flying with oil pressure that wasn't in normal parameters?...not that you will able to answer that. I highly recommend not flying again until you figure out what is happening, and please post more detailed info on your engine readings during run ups and your previous flights after the overhaul.

 

Brian

[Seth]

What RPM were you attempting the Cycle?  IN my F Model, I could easily do the cycle as low as 1500 to 1600 RPM.  In my Missile, I have to be above 1800 RPM, so I do my run up at 1900 RPM.

 

We called Rocket about that and they said that is in parameters and normal - especially since I had just overhauled my prop governor as part of my engine overhaul when I purchased the airplane.  Maybe your new engine or governor or something needs a higher RPM before it will cycle.

 

Good luck,

 

-Seth

[Marauder]

I am often amazed at the number of folks who visit this and other forums for direction on serious maintenance issues before, apparently, having discussed the matter with a qualified mechanic. The latter is the first thing I do. Am I a kook?

I think the problem is that some of these mechanics who we think are "qualified" shouldn't be turning a wrench.

Sent using Tapatalk

[Marauder]

What RPM were you attempting the Cycle? IN my F Model, I could easily do the cycle as low as 1500 to 1600 RPM. In my Missile, I have to be above 1800 RPM, so I do my run up at 1900 RPM.

We called Rocket about that and they said that is in parameters and normal - especially since I had just overhauled my prop governor as part of my engine overhaul when I purchased the airplane. Maybe your new engine or governor or something needs a higher RPM before it will cycle.

Good luck,

-Seth

You beat me to it Seth. My F won't cycle at too low of an RPM. He may be trying to cycle it at a lower RPM to avoid overheating those new cylinders.

Sent using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

Oil pressure to activate the prop blades is generated by the govenor's gear pump.

The choices you have are

(1) govenor is not working as expected...

Fly weights or valve are stuck, and not operating the valve...

Gear pump is stuck or broken or not connected...

Control Cable isn't attached...

(2) metal seal is leaking at the front of the shaft...

Prop comes off seal is hammered back in place

(3) significant oil leakage leaving the system....

This would be a large mess, you couldn't miss...

If everything was put back together properly, the metal seal in the prop shaft is an oddity... Oil pressure from the govenor keeps it in place. If it gets out of place it won't be able to seat itself.

I think we have covered this at least once before. You may be able to search for the shaft seal.

There is a remote possibility of broken parts Circulating in the oil, or oil departing the engine.

Definitely not worth flying it until... Test pilots need not apply....

Good luck an best regards,

-a-

[orionflt]

Oil pressure to activate the prop blades is generated by the govenor's gear pump.

The choices you have are

(1) govenor is not working as expected...

Fly weights or valve are stuck, and not operating the valve...

Gear pump is stuck or broken or not connected...

Control Cable isn't attached...

(2) metal seal is leaking at the front of the shaft...

Prop comes off seal is hammered back in place

(3) significant oil leakage leaving the system....

This would be a large mess, you couldn't miss...

If everything was put back together properly, the metal seal in the prop shaft is an oddity... Oil pressure from the govenor keeps it in place. If it gets out of place it won't be able to seat itself.

I think we have covered this at least once before. You may be able to search for the shaft seal.

There is a remote possibility of broken parts Circulating in the oil, or oil departing the engine.

Definitely not worth flying it until... Test pilots need not apply....

Good luck an best regards,

-a-

this just reminded me of an issue we had with a Lancair IVP, the engine was new when installed and had about 60 hours logged, the new owner was flying with an instructor (also a test pilot) doing type specific training. they initiated an emergency decent and had a prop overspeed to 3610 RPM, they pulled power back and never touched it again until they landed. post analysis found the prop could be wobbled on the crank shaft due to the prop bolts stretching, and 2 of them breaking. the engine had to be sent out for overhaul, it required a new crank shaft along with most of the other internal parts. the prop was scrap. the cause of this 100K fiasco.......the original builder of the plane did not remove the shipping gasket before he installed the new governor, the gasket partially blocked one of the oil ports allowing the prop to appear to work but under a sudden load change it was not able to compensate fast enough.

 

Brian 

[AndyFromCB]

Mechanic was on sight for first flight ... As I said we thought problem solved and he went home. I appreciate the advice from all of u and the comments from astelmaszek sent my blood pressure over the top - this has been a 6 month ordeal with the OH and I'm just looking for insight not smart ass comments.

 

Better to send your blood pressure over the top than to have it forever be at zero on your next flight. I dealt with an overhaul myself about a year ago but I guess I don't understand the comments about cooking the engine up on the ground. Never seen over 420 during my break in flights and sure didn't see anything even close to that on the ground. Old wives tales. And if the engine was overhauled then why wasn't it test run on a stand and broken in. Mine spend 3 hours on a test stand.

[N201MKTurbo]

I had my H1 governor overhauled once and it would not cycle at 1900 RPM, It would only regulate down to about 2200 RPM. I called the prop shop and he said that there were two ways to set up that governor and he set it up wrong. He said to bring it back and he would fix it (easy for him to say). I took it back he re-adjusted it and it worked fine.

 

Have you tried cycling it at a higher RPM on the ground?

[jwilkins]

The comments from astelmaszek may have been harsh, but VALID. 

 

Please: If you want to document on a public forum that you went flying after identifying a non-airworthy condition, don't use your name and tail number.

 

You read about every week that someone got fired for posting a comment on Facebook. It's only a matter of time before we read about an insurance investigator quoting comments made on a public website to show either specific liability or a 'history' of non conforming actions.

 

Shortly after I moved into my City of Prescott hanger both the State sales tax dept (TPT) and the AZ MVD Registration dept sent me notices of non compliance. I had to dig out the records from when I bought the plane to prove I paid the TPT (sales) tax and the  registration paperwork to show I had registered the plane three years before. The city of Prescott reported to the State that I had rented a hanger and put a possibly unregistered untaxed aircraft in it. What right does the city have to disclose what N# aircraft I have in my leased hanger? According to an attorney friend, NONE. But it's not worth fighting over. He said "If you had not paid the tax, you'd be guilty and have have no credibility. If you are not guilty you have no damages. Just let it go". 

 

Your posts on these forums, your leases, your pilots certificates, your Face Book posts, your life, and perhaps your 'private' emails,are NOT private.

 

Either keep your posts 'clean' or register without any personal information. Either way, be careful what you post.

 

It disturbs me, but we all need to understand that there is very little privacy in the world today.

 

BY the way, even though your mechanic said something like "Looks OK to me, go try it"  do you think he would have taken responsibility for  a new engine if there had been a major oil leak in the air? Would he have told your insurance Company that he had given you a maintenance release if the prop had failed on take off?

 

I guess I'm in  a conspiracy fired doom-and gloom mood today......  sorry....

 

Jim

[robert7467]

CM, I am sorry to hear about  the harsh responses that you are getting on here, especially being a new member. I have had my fair share of criticism on this board, but for the most part, people are willing to help you out. Some of them are being harsh to empathize the seriousness  of your issue, some of them are being harsh to overcompensate for something they are lacking, or they are having a bad day. I will admit, you did make yourself easy prey, like a gazelle with a broken leg. Keep your head up, take their advice and don’t let them get to you personally. With that being said, you will find a lot of valuable information on here, from people who care. Welcome to Mooney Space!

[DonMuncy]

what Robert said

[Marauder]

Someone say fresh meat?! what I always liked about this board was technical questions were answered without the commentary. I hope that doesn't change.

[TWinter]

Takes tough skin to be a Mooniac.., but we are actually pretty mild compared to some boards. Eventually, we all agree or disagree, but we still get back up. What was the preverbal saying. "If you knock me down please make sure I fall face up so I can get back up for more". . Good luck and get that bird checked out.  

[CWM20f]

It was never an oil pressure problem - I'm sorry if I gave some of you that impression. It is in the green at idle all the way through full throttle. I only mentioned it to say it is in the green to rule out oil pres as a problem. And no I would not go up if it was not normal - I'm only new to mooneys not flying. After checking it today - and yes with mechanic - it is just as N201MKTurbo pointed out it cycles at 1900 and over. It was overhauled with engine. Before the O/H I could cycle anywhere around 1600 up.