Stalls in M20J

[MooneyBob]

I have practiced slow flight and stalls in my M20J today for very first time with my instructor.  I did many of them today and I actually liked how the plane behaves and responses. I have tried power on, power off, clean and dirty configuration. My impression was that the stalls are pretty predictable and the plane gives plenty of sings to recognize the incoming break. The controls , air flow and engine sounds change noticeably. The stall itself was nothing really dramatic. Few times I let it drop deeper then usual  recovery just to see how she drops the wing. Opposite rudder and little forward yoke did the magic. At the end I was able to recover in proximity of 100 - 150' drop.  I know that to practice stalls when you expect them is different from real thing in the low altitude on the final but they should be definitely part of the PPL training too. I went through few instructors and none of them really wanted to practice them on regular basis and master them.  It was more like " item checked " on the list. And that's the shame as it could teach you a lot about the plane, coordination and mental preparation.

 

Bob

[dougmilam]

My experience with the J is the same as yours.

[Wakeup]

I had thoughts of my M20B dropping out of the sky when my FI said we are going to practice stalls a few months ago. I was pleasantly surprised Mooneys are so stable. It made me feel soo much better about the plane and slow flight.

[N201MKTurbo]

When I did my private pilot training. We did stalls and spins in every lesson. It seems strange that they don't teach it any more. The instructors I had were old grey beards back then in '79 and had old school ideas. I'm glad I had them.

[AlanA]

Years ago when I bought my first Mooney I took a CFI with me who had mostly trained in Archers, and Cessnas.  When we practiced stalls and the wing would drop he was scared and convinced something was wrong.  I found another CFI with lots of Mooney time and we tried it again.  He was very familiar with how a Mooney stalls and after much practice convinced me that everything was normal and infact less dramatic than in many other high performance planes.   Two lessons I learned from the second instructor 1) Cessna pilots will be scared by the difference between a Cessna or Archer and a Mooney and, 2) if you are quick with opposite rudder it is a non-event.

[M016576]

The stalls should be predictable: it's a certificated private aircraft (and presumably airworthy). They have a tight (safe) demonstrated margin for safety of flight / in flight performance. I'd be worried if any certificated aircraft stalled "unpredictably," that would be a sign that all is not well with the airframe, and that aircraft probably isn't airworthy by its certification standards.

[scottfromiowa]

try a couple with the ball not centered for some real fun...

[scottfromiowa]

up high...

[MooneyBob]

try a couple with the ball not centered for some real fun...

I will next time.

[Alan Fox]

He was being Sarcastic.....Not a good Idea....

[Mooneymite]

try a couple with the ball not centered for some real fun...

Better yet, don't.

[MooneyBob]

I know. I wouldn't.

[chrisk]

I believe the fear of stalls in Mooneys is because they are not certified for spins, with perhaps a bit of a reputation for difficult spin recovery.  And if you don't stall it, you will not spin it.

[scottfromiowa]

Stall=Respect=fear down low Stall=Respect=No stall down low=NO FEAR

[ArtVandelay]

try a couple with the ball not centered for some real fun...

 

Better yet, don't

 

I know. I wouldn't.

In the real world, if you are making the mistake of stalling the plane, what do you think are the chances that you are doing it with the ball centered??

[John Pleisse]

Most of the instructors I've dealt with have had extensive aerobatic experience, military and civilian. They all have a confidence and candor about them. Two in particular were quite comfortable letting me roll the plane over to teach me a lesson and allow me to learn the hard way. You need to find a better instructor. Military, most kids coming out of Riddle or Park's or a local that does a lot of aerobatics.These people are great.

[scottfromiowa]

In the real world, if you are making the mistake of stalling the plane, what do you think are the chances that you are doing it with the ball centered??

In my real world pretty damn good.

[scottfromiowa]

"If" if's and but's were nuts we'd all have food for life.

[Awqward]

When I got my J I practised stalls with an instructor...power off full stalls often led to a wing drop...with ball centred to the best of my ability ;-) but very easily recovered and absolutely nothing to fear..... the prospect of doing power on stalls was daunting.....however I found none or little tendency to drop a wing with power on....a bit counter intuitive I suppose...

Anthony Q

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[Bob_Belville]

When I did my private pilot training. We did stalls and spins in every lesson. It seems strange that they don't teach it any more. The instructors I had were old grey beards back then in '79 and had old school ideas. I'm glad I had them.

I got my PPL in 1969 @ a flying school on the field @ BNA in C150s. (BNA was not all that busy back then and one of the 2 parallel runways was pretty much GA with a lot of training.)

 

I was 26 and my instructor was younger than I was. We never did a spin. Not even a demo. Looking at my first log book, I see we did p. off stalls on my 3rd lesson @ 2.5 hours we did p. off stalls twice more and p. on stalls just once before soloing @11.5 hours. After soloing I only find one flight with p.off/p.on stalls with the instructor -- just before the PPL ride @ 40.5 hours. I see only two entries where I did p.off stalls while alone, both shortly after soloing, @ less than 20 hours.

 

I can only guess I was such a natural that the instructor saw no point in repeating something I was so good at.    

[201er]

Those stall exercises sound like a pointless waste of time. Who actually stalls a Mooney flying straight ahead in a predictable fashion? Or with just you + instructor?

To actually practice stalls, load 4 people and fuel to gross weight and try climbing power on turns or steep power off turns. Thats how they actually happen. Or better yet get an AOA indicator and fly the right AOA and prevent stalls in the first place.

[EDNR-Cruiser]

That's exactly what my FI asked me to do when I did the transitional training in my Mooney! The power on and power off stalls in straight flight actually were non events and not much different than what I was used to from various Cessnas and Pipers but the stalls in turns really are a different story!!! The funny thing is that the Mooneys always seem to stall with the right wing first because my Mooney did it exactly as I was warned upfront, even in a 60° left turn... - the rudder went soft, some shuddering and then it banked VERY hard to the right side...
Make sure that you have plenty of altitude before you try this... - in the beginning I easily lost 800 ft and even after some practice it still cost me about 400 ft to recover safely without a secondary stall.

[DaV8or]

Those stall exercises sound like a pointless waste of time. Who actually stalls a Mooney flying straight ahead in a predictable fashion? Or with just you + instructor?

 

Exactly! Serious waste of time and it puts you potentially closer to an actual disaster. Everyone should go out and stall their Mooney once or twice to get a feel for how it behaves prior to a stall so they can recognize it and and avoid it potentially. After that, it's just a huge waste of time to convince yourself that you are a better than average pilot and ready for anything.

 

1. Nobody enters a stall by accident in real life while watching the ball like a hawk with the reaction to recovery spring loaded and ready to snap. The reason they get in a stall and after that a spin, is they are oblivious and distracted in the first place.
2. Nearly no one stalls/spins in a real accident at 3-4,000ft AGL going straight and level. Real stall spin accidents occur within the traffic pattern, or at very low altitude.
3. From this we can conclude that if and when you actually get into a real stall/spin emergency it is highly unlikely that it will be straight ahead, ball centered and at an altitude where you can nicely recover. You were distracted enough to get into the stall in the first place, so I doubt you were focused on the slip/skid ball. You're going to drop a wing. These kinds of distractions rarely, if ever occur at cruise altitude, so likely you are looking death in the face. Will you push, or will you pull? Will you have time to run down the PARE checklist? Ultimately, will it matter?
4. Back in the good ol' days when spin recovery was required for the PPL, pilots routinely died from stall/spins a lot in those days. This fantastic stick and rudder training didn't save them at all. See above. In fact, it was so bad with students and instructors practicing for the test and dying, that the FAA changed their position and got rid of it. They were right. Learn to notice an impending stall and avoid it. That is best.  Since the change in policy, fatalities have gone down.

If you insist on going out and bobbling up up and down the sky at a safe altitude, so you can pat yourself on the back and tell yourself you're a super safe pilot, I'm 100% behind that. You're out there flying and honing your piloting skills. So you are a bit safer than some pilots that do no testing of their skills and that's awesome. Just don't kid yourself and think you are now immune to dying in a stall/spin accident. None of us are.

[midlifeflyer]

In my real world pretty damn good.

 

Interesting. Like teejayevans I'd suspect most people getting into an inadvertent stall due to poor piloting technique("making the mistake of stalling the plane")  would be doing other things wrong as well.

[midlifeflyer]

Exactly! Serious waste of time and it puts you potentially closer to an actual disaster. Everyone should go out and stall their Mooney once or twice to get a feel for how it behaves prior to a stall so they can recognize it and and avoid it potentially. After that, it's just a huge waste of time to convince yourself that you are a better than average pilot and ready for anything.

 

There is also a theory just beginning to take root in instructor circles that when we teach stalls we are actually teaching that stalls are ok and that we can alway recover from them easily and with no problem. That's not exactly the lesson we want.