Buying a plane, what to look for in logs

[ArtVandelay]

If looking at plane's Aircraft logs, should I see the SBs that were complied with? I've seen AD list but not a SB list

Should I be concern it's never been serviced by a MSC?

If corrosion-x treatment was done, would this show up in the logs?

If 208B was complied with, how often would you expect some type of corrosion preventive treatment?

Any other things to look for?

[cliffy]

Are you looking to buy a Mooney? If so it would help if you narrowed it down to what model(s) you are interested in so the correct advice could be passed along to you.

[gregwatts]

I would suggest that.....if you don't know what to look for in the logs......have an IA spend some time (at your expense, of course) and review them for you. There are many things to look for and sometimes it is more important to find out what is NOT in the logs. Does it have an annual inspection every year? Does the tach match the logs? When was the engine overhauled? By Who? Are there long periods of no flying? These are just the tip of the iceberg of items to look for.

 

 

 

My opinion only!

[Cruiser]

Yes, logs are the airplanes life history, but you must be careful in judging the condition of the plane by what the mechanic puts in the logs. Technical writing is typically not an A&P/IAs strong point. The airplane could be very, very well maintained with poorly detailed records. 

You have to read between the lines and compare what the log says to what you actually see. 

 

In my opinion, you should be looking at the paint, seats and instrument panel. Let the experts deal with the technical stuff, that's what a pre-buy inspection is for.

[Marauder]

You should be looking for an AD/SB summary that is kept updated. My mechanic places and update in the logs pointing out the status of the completed and recurrent ADs. As was was suggested above, let the experts have a look at it. Needless to say, not the "expert" that has been maintaining it.

[DS1980]

Agreed with all that mention the pre-buy. A more useful question would be where to get the prebuy completed. Don Maxwell at KGGG has an excellent reputation. Who else?

[ArtVandelay]

Agreed with all that mention the pre-buy.

 

Of course I would have a pre-buy and expect the AP to check the logs.  But long before I get to that step, I wanted to know what things I should be looking for to narrow down selected candidates. 

 

Technical writing is typically not an A&P/IAs strong point. The airplane could be very, very well maintained with poorly detailed records.

 

Really!?! So if the salesman/owner said they complied with all SBs, you would take he word for it?

In my opinion, you should be looking at the paint, seats and instrument panel. Let the experts deal with the technical stuff, that's what a pre-buy inspection is for.

 

Did you all just walk up to a plane, kick it's tires and say "yep, that's a plane alright, I'll buy it"

Again...

For those who have had corrosion-x treatments, are they listed in your logs?

How often do you do corrosion treatments?

How many of you never have taken your plane to a MSC?

[Cabanaboy]

http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20J%20Evaluation/M20J_evaluation_report.html

 

http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/prepurchasehowwhy.html

[bnicolette]

Of course I would have a pre-buy and expect the AP to check the logs.  But long before I get to that step, I wanted to know what things I should be looking for to narrow down selected candidates. 

 

Really!?! So if the salesman/owner said they complied with all SBs, you would take he word for it?

Did you all just walk up to a plane, kick it's tires and say "yep, that's a plane alright, I'll buy it"

Again...

For those who have had corrosion-x treatments, are they listed in your logs?

How often do you do corrosion treatments?

How many of you never have taken your plane to a MSC?

 

For those who have had corrosion-x treatments, are they listed in your logs?   Yes, every corrosion-x treatment my airplane had was listed in the logs.

 

How often do you do corrosion treatments? Depending on where the airplane is based.  Mine was done every year to every other year at a minimum.

 

How many of you never have taken your plane to a MSC?  I have utilized a MSC but I also am fortunate enough to have a very professional shop at my base field.

 

Really!?! So if the salesman/owner said they complied with all SBs, you would take he word for it? All service bulletins that were complied with were listed in the logbook entry.

 

Did you all just walk up to a plane, kick it's tires and say "yep, that's a plane alright, I'll buy it"  Ummm, No.  I think it's important to look at the airplanes entire life to get the "big picture".  

 

I can't over emphasize a buyers agent especially for somebody that is asking these sorts of questions.  If you want the name of a great guy that is very reasonably priced please PM me.  It will be the best money you've every spent and I guarantee he will save you more than you pay him!

[fantom]

Of course I would have a pre-buy and expect the AP to check the logs.  But long before I get to that step, I wanted to know what things I should be looking for to narrow down selected candidates. 

 

Really!?! So if the salesman/owner said they complied with all SBs, you would take he word for it?

Did you all just walk up to a plane, kick it's tires and say "yep, that's a plane alright, I'll buy it"

Again...

For those who have had corrosion-x treatments, are they listed in your logs?

How often do you do corrosion treatments?

How many of you never have taken your plane to a MSC?

 

Interesting comments from a newbee who has told us exactly nothing about himself or what he's looking for. Just a list of extremely broad brush general questions, and an attitude.

 

SB's are not mandatory, corrosion treatments usually aren't logged, nor do they have to be, MSC visits are good but not critical, and the suggestion to get a buyer's agent is an excellent one given the ignorant questions you have. 

[ArtVandelay]

 

Interesting comments from a newbee who has told us exactly nothing about himself or what he's looking for. Just a list of extremely broad brush general questions, and an attitude.

 

SB's are not mandatory, corrosion treatments usually aren't logged, nor do they have to be, MSC visits are good but not critical, and the suggestion to get a buyer's agent is an excellent one given the ignorant questions you have. 

 

Because they were general questions, so doesn't matter if its a F, J, or K

I got attitude because only 1 of the responses up to that point actually answered any of the questions.

And I may be a new at this, but even I know that if a service wasn't documented, it never happen, and would not take the word of the seller. I recommend you keep invoices of all service on your plane, whether it ends up in the logs or not. Just a newbies opinion.

[gregwatts]

Chill out.....These folks would all like to help you!

 

With your attitude, maybe you are better suited for a Bonanza!

[Marauder]

Just a little more commentary. Corrosion protection is not a mandatory item. A good portion of our Mooneys were painted with Zinc Chromate paint on the bare aluminum. People who live near the oceans or in high humidity areas will have it done more frequently. I believe Brett's plane resided in Florida for a bit.

Most of the work on my plane was done by a local mechanic or avionics shop not associated with a MSC. Why? Because most of the issues were either engine or avionics related and they tend to be more agnostic in nature. Where a MSC does make a difference is in Mooney specific issues, like rigging of the gear or flight controls. They have the tools and experience. But that doesn't mean a non-MSC mechanic can't handle it. Mine does.

SBs are not mandatory. ADs are. Some SBs are no brainers. Like 208. But many SBs may pertain to stuff that is not on that particular airplane anymore. The same for ADs. An example, my F model had a recurring AD for the yoke shafts. I upgraded the yokes and shafts to the J style which means my logs reflect the change and that the AD is no longer pertinent to my plane.

Hence my recommendation to have someone who knows how to review the current published ADs and a knowledge of the SBs to review the logs -- as a starting point. Just because it is in the logs, doesn't mean it was done correctly, therefore the pre-buy...

Hope this helps.

[orionflt]

If looking at plane's Aircraft logs, should I see the SBs that were complied with? I've seen AD list but not a SB list

Should I be concern it's never been serviced by a MSC?

If corrosion-x treatment was done, would this show up in the logs?

If 208B was complied with, how often would you expect some type of corrosion preventive treatment?

Any other things to look for?

TJ,

The best thing you can do is find a plane you like, once you do ask for the log books so they can be reviewed. In most cases you can get PDF copy's of the complete logs or at least the last few yrs, a general look at those logs can usually tell you wether or not you want to look closer at the aircraft. Some of the things you will be looking for in the logs are the AD compliance, general maintenance records, amount of time flown over the past several yrs, you will also want to look for any damage history, repair records, 337s. There are a lot of factors that go into deciding how well maintained an aircraft is, just because the aircraft went to a MSC doesn't make it better then one that was maintained by a small shop, the owner pretty much decides what work he wants done and what he wants to put off till later. When I bought my mooney people thought I was nuts because to look at it you would have thought I was going to fall out of the sky. The thing was the previous owner maticulasly took care of the mechanical, but didn't worry about the cosmetic because he had gotten too old to use I to trips and just flew local for the last 10 yrs he owned it. There are planes out there that look pretty until you start to open them up, find a good IA to work with and let him help weed out the airplanes you will regret. As an IA I have helped several people based at my field find aircraft, I can usually do a basic look and tell them if it is worth looking closer at. Feel free to contact me if you would like some help.

[ArtVandelay]

Another point of clarification regarding corrosion. SB208 compliance and Corrosion X treatments are generally unrelated and address two very different corrosion threats to our airframes. Whether one has been performed or not has practically no bearing on the other.

 

Is there any non-invasive way of checking the state of the corrosion protection when I'm doing my "kicking the tires" inspection or better yet, any particular area that I can request a picture of? M20J model in particular if it matters

[Marauder]

Have them provide a picture of the avionics bay (where the battery is on older Mooneys). If the plane is zinc chromated, look for evidence of corrosion on the push pull rods for the rudder and elevator that run through the bay. If they are not on top of corrosion issues, you may see some evidence there.

[bnicolette]

Is there any non-invasive way of checking the state of the corrosion protection when I'm doing my "kicking the tires" inspection or better yet, any particular area that I can request a picture of? M20J model in particular if it matters

 

Another hotspot is the frame tubing on top of the exhaust pipe.  Easy enough to get to on the J model.

 

Also, here is what was entered in my logbook every time a CorrosionX treatment was done.

[quik flite]

Someone who is trained to look at your specific model of airplane is the best money you will ever spend, period.  A Mooney Service Center  looking at your big investment is cheap insurance, I am sure there are a few  mechanics not associated with a Mooney Service Center who are qualified and excellent , but chances are they are not any better or any cheaper,  why go anywhere else, at least initially,  if not very regularly.  If the plane did not at least occasionally visit one I would be more cautious , but use your good judgement and due diligence.  I have used Webers in PA  with excellent results and have heard great things about others , find a close one and ask what people think of the service and go from there.

[pinerunner]

Lets assume you're not a hard core mechanic, engineer type. One thing you can still get a handle on is how much the plane is being flown. The hours on the engine and/or airframe will be there in each years annual. Seeing that the previous owner was actually flying it each year is a good sign. On the other hand a low-time plane that hasn't been flown for ten years......approach with caution.

 

Don't skip getting a pre-purchase inspection.

[mike_elliott]

For those who have had corrosion-x treatments, are they listed in your logs?   Yes, every corrosion-x treatment my airplane had was listed in the logs.

 

How often do you do corrosion treatments? Depending on where the airplane is based.  Mine was done every year to every other year at a minimum.

 

How many of you never have taken your plane to a MSC?  I have utilized a MSC but I also am fortunate enough to have a very professional shop at my base field.

 

Really!?! So if the salesman/owner said they complied with all SBs, you would take he word for it? All service bulletins that were complied with were listed in the logbook entry.

 

Did you all just walk up to a plane, kick it's tires and say "yep, that's a plane alright, I'll buy it"  Ummm, No.  I think it's important to look at the airplanes entire life to get the "big picture".  

 

I can't over emphasize a buyers agent especially for somebody that is asking these sorts of questions.  If you want the name of a great guy that is very reasonably priced please PM me.  It will be the best money you've every spent and I guarantee he will save you more than you pay him!

Brett is spot on. Save yourself some real dollars and pay someone to be your advocate here. You will gain way more in knowledge than you will pay him and you will most likely end up with the best plane for the $ available. 

[ArtVandelay]

Brett is spot on. Save yourself some real dollars and pay someone to be your advocate here. You will gain way more in knowledge than you will pay him and you will most likely end up with the best plane for the $ available. 

Is that what you did?

[mike_elliott]

No, I didn't. I wish I did. That said, I got very very lucky and only had about 8K worth of surprises, 8K I could have potentially saved. Fortunately, the plane had "good bones" overall and now is one of the better examples of an F model flying (with enough money thrown at it) I have been contracted as buyers advocate for a few folks now that I have been "educated" over the last 16 years, Most recently on a 1984 J model I am the caretaker for until Joe arrives next month to begin his transition and instrument training in. I looked at logs for over 40 planes for him, one of which was a very nice E model that was purchased recently by a Mooney Space member. Finally we found the right one for him, and saved over 10K on the asking and had 5K worth of Don Maxwell discrepancies taken care of.

[jetdriven]

You looked at logs of 40 mooneys for this buyer? 

[mike_elliott]

You looked at logs of 40 mooneys for this buyer? 

I believe it was a couple more than that, but granted, some were very cursory and didn't take long to review. There were a number of very good planes in the mix. 4 stood out as exceptional. Offers were made on 2, a deal was struck on one, and one we were too late on with an offer on the table. One of them was picked up by another Mooney space member. There were a couple I really liked, but they also didn't fit Joe's mission. I spent way more time on it than I originally thought I would, as I began to really take this personally, to find the best one available at the time. It worked out to about 10/hr

[bnicolette]

I believe it was a couple more than that, but granted, some were very cursory and didn't take long to review. There were a number of very good planes in the mix. 4 stood out as exceptional. Offers were made on 2, a deal was struck on one, and one we were too late on with an offer on the table. One of them was picked up by another Mooney space member. There were a couple I really liked, but they also didn't fit Joe's mission. I spent way more time on it than I originally thought I would, as I began to really take this personally, to find the best one available at the time. It worked out to about 10/hr

 

Must be Mooney pilots are better at record keeping and backing up as opposed to Beech pilots.  I've run into more road blocks than I care to talk about trying to get copies of log books on Baron's that I'm interested in.  About 1 in 5 seem to have them accessible in digital format.  All the others expect you to peruse them on site.