New guy intro

[M20F]

Hi,

I have a 1967 M20F with a RayJay and have been pretty pleased with it. I true out at about 155-165kts in the FL's if you look N9709M on Flightaware some recent flights that took advantage of some great winds up high.

Been no major issues with the turbo in the 2.5yrs I have had it. They are hard to find (I haven't seen one for sale in awhile) and you definitely want to ensure you take it up high to check it produces what it should. I get 24-25 inches at Fl190 generally.

Happy to answer any questions but really like the combination.

[M20F]

The nice thing about the RayJay set up is that it is my understanding that it is on demand only. So when you are just tooling around or when you prefer for whatever reason to cruise at non-oxygen altitudes, you can completely eliminate it from the system. The other nice thing about it is that it is a turbo-normalization system. Not a turbo charger.

Hi this is correct I shot an exhaust valve out of the #3 cylinder recently which after rattling around it deposited itself in the turbo (was not operating at the time). Other then a gasket that needed to be replaced to put back together was no turbo damage.

I use the TN a couple times a year mostly when the winds favor it. For me it was a must have in my purchase decision and got a really good deal out of the guys at All American Aircraft, couldn't be happier. Other than the valve issue have had no issues.

[Jsavage3]

Hey RayGun, welcome to Mooney land.  Glad to see a fellow fast mover moving into GA and Mooneys...

 

I'll put a plug in for the J -- I've had the pleasure of owning an '86 J for 3 years now.  It's a great airplane!  Wife, two kids and me = a perfect fit with 158 KTAS, 9.2-to-9.5 GPH (non LOP), 64 gal useable and 950 # payload.  I don't care who does the math -- that's impressive and only a Mooney can do it.

 

I'd recommend an older J over the older models if you can swing it...if nothing else, the speed mods are already done and you have more legroom for the two aft seats.

 

Check 6 or die!

[Raygun15E]

Thanks for all the info guys! Some of you are making it difficult to decide between a F and a J model. Just as you should! I know I've narrowed it down to the mid-length body since I want enough leg room for friends or if/when the kids need leg room in the future.

 

Here's an example of an F model that's nearby I can easily check out.

 

http://www.aso.com/listings/spec/ViewAd.aspx?id=144593&listingType=true&IsInternal=True&pagingNo=1&searchId=7728196&dealerid=

 

1968 M20F Turbo! All the speed mods you want, plus Gamijectors, JPI 700 & Garmin 430 tied into the pilot control yoke. 201 cowling, digital tach, vernier throttle/mixture/turbo, KT-76C transponder, ADC oil filter, Plane Power alternator, skytec starter, LASAR wingtips w/ anti-collision lights, one piece SWTA belly, flap/gap seals, one-piece windshield (not 201), PS6000M audio panel, 4-pl oxygen, precise flight speed brakes, 3-blade black-Mac Scimitar & fresh annual as of 1 Dec 2012. Logs missing prior to 1986, but a completely solid airplane.

TTAF: 3684

Engine: 1611 SMOH

Prop: 212 SPOH

[mike_elliott]

I wonder what is meant by a fresh annual as of Dec 2012. A question you might ask is how long has it been on the market and has anyone made an offer yet or a prebuy done already? I would summize by the one piece belly and 3 blade prop it has had a gear up, but cannot say for sure. In any event, Have a pro like Don Maxwell give it a prebuy that you could roll into an annual if you are serious about it after flying it and giving a cursory inspection. The 950 he charges will find about every thing that needs attention and associated costs to repair. I just  did this with a J model last week, well worth the costs.

[Bob_Belville]

You'll want to know more about the condition of the "turbo", the engine since it is within 400 hrs of nominal TBO and whether that old Brittain A/P is working. The panel is pretty dated other than the 430 and that's obviously not the latest. You could pretty easily spend another 50AMU in the first few years of ownership. 

 

And if Mike is right about a gear up you'll want to know how many hours back that was and all the details of the engine tear down inspection.

 

But do check it out, you'll need to start adding to your data base even if this is not "the one."

[fantom]

Have a pro like Don Maxwell give it a prebuy that you could roll into an annual if you are serious about it after flying it and giving a cursory inspection.

Good advise about a Maxwell PPI. One note of caution is don't be surprised if the seller doesn't agree to roll it into an annual until after title transfer. Otherwise the seller could be stuck with an opened up plane, at a shop you've hired, if you decide against the purchase. Further to what Bob advised, I suspect a through avionics prebuy is just as important on many of these older birds.

[chrisk]

Looks like a nice plane.  Definitely spend the money on a pre-purchase inspection. 

 

As for the plane, I know it has been for sale since Feb of 2012.   Back when I was in the market, I called on it (an add in craigs list).  I don't remember why I didn't look into it further, maybe it was the missing logs and higher time engine. 

[Bob_Belville]

... Further to what Bob advised, I suspect a through avionics prebuy is just as important on many of these older birds.

I bought my '66E Feb 2012 with everything working but within a year I had to spend about 1AMU each on the stormscope and KNS80. The older GPS (IFR) became a little flaky and I realized I could not count on the Narco HSI which no one could work on anymore. I still have the stormscope... 

[Seth]

This F has an engine in the last 1/4 of it's TBO life (and engines can be run past TBO) but what concerns me is the new prob and one piece belly as indecated by others.  The price is not bad, but with about $30,000 coming due on the enigh OH plus other expenses in the next year, the seller may be willing to settle for less.  If I was selling, I'd stay at a firm 50 due to the Ray Jay turbo and other mods, but each circumstance is different.

 

My MSC (Mooney Service Center) warned me about the Ray Jay turbo.  if yours is working and working well, good.  If it is not working right, it can sometimes be hard to make it work right.  Some are worth it, some aren't.  A Ray Jay F is a great plane - you have normal power for takeoff, and then when you get to 7, 8, 9000 feet, just turn on the turbo, it's like a second power control once your are WOT and your MPs kick back in.  No overboosting on the ground, and only in operation when you want it.

 

Like others have said - test fly it should you get to that point, take it up high, and make sure the turbo works.

 

A regular F at 145-148 knots without the ram air, touching 150 with the ram air is not a bad place to be either!

 

-Seth

[Z W]

Some caution items on that F:

 

1.  Plan to rebuild the engine within a year or two of purchase, based on high time.  You might get lucky.  You might not.

 

2.  The 430 is probably not a 430W.  A WAAS GPS is a huge value, and honestly, is now considered essential for IFR flight by most buyers.  Not a deal breaker, but if I were shopping, I would either buy a plane with WAAS or plan to put it in first thing.  It's an expensive upgrade, but it's a great safety improvement for single-pilot IFR into small rural airports.

 

It does look like a nice plane.  Just two factors to consider.  If you want a turbo, you should expand your search to early K model 231's.

[Raygun15E]

Sorry for the delay, long days at work.

 

Yes, the airplane in the example I gave has been on the market for a while. The owner thought he was moving a long time ago. The AF is finally moving him to San Antonio now. It only took them over a year to decide.

 

If there was a gear up on this plane, it isn't in the FAA online incident searches. The current owner hasn't had a gear up in the past couple years. I'd have to check the logs to be sure of the possible gear up.

I do want the avionics to work and will make that a stipulation of purchasing the plane if it comes down to it. The higher time on the engine is a concern, I'll admit that. The owner is having his mechanic looking into the Brittain autopilot. It currently turns right everytime it is turned on.

The plane is flying up to Dallas tomorrow so the owner and another IP here on base can get their ATPs. I'm busy over the next week or so, but hopefully I'll be able to go fly the airplane, if anything, just to see how it flies and how the turbo works in practice.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Raygun15E

[fantom]

Here's a story a Strike Eagle pilot may enjoy about the last, stick and rudder, non-electric, combat proven, true fighter, and it's ignoble ending. 

 

http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/Where-Have-All-the-Phantoms-Gone.html?story=fullstory&device=ipad

 

I note that the F-15 has a proper, between the legs, stick as well, and is not half bad   

[rbridges]

I bought my '66E Feb 2012 with everything working but within a year I had to spend about 1AMU each on the stormscope and KNS80. The older GPS (IFR) became a little flaky and I realized I could not count on the Narco HSI which no one could work on anymore. I still have the stormscope... 

 

similar with my 65C.  Everything worked fine, but then I had to repair one of the KX155 radios, KM24 audio panel and (uggh) leaking fuel tanks within 12 months.

[Raygun15E]

Hey guys, just got back from a student XC.

 

That is a pretty cool article about the F-4.  A lot of the senior guys in the squadron when I 1st showed up to SJ were former F-4 guys. Especially all the sim instructors. Same goes for the sim instructors here at Laughlin. Now the AF is modifying the F-16 for target duty... I always considered them targets before, so nothing new! ;-)

 

I'm hoping to find an airplane with fully working avionics. It might be a tall order, but that's the goal! It sounds like everyone has had Murphy present new problems/issues in the 1st year of ownership.

[Bob - S50]

Chris,

 

Laugh-In AFB in Dia Rea TX?  Been there, done that.  Man do I feel old.  We lived there from '76 to '80.  Anyway you asked about costs.  I formed a group of 4 not because of the purchase cost, but because of the cost to keep it.  We planned on $2000/yr for insurance, $2400/yr for annual, $2400/yr for hangar plus any GPS database updates, annual registration, IFR certs, pitot static checks, etc.  We decided it would cost us something around $8000 to $10,000/year just to keep it even if we never flew it.  We bought a '78 J.

 

With that in mind, here are some websites we found useful in our search for the plane we finally bought:

 

http://www.controller.com

http://www.barnstormers.com/

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/

http://www.lasar.com/

 

There are others, but these will give you lots of planes to look at.

 

What they say about upgrades is correct.  We spent about $14,000 buying parts and another $14,000 having them installed.  Whatever you pay to buy something, plan on spending the same amount to install it.

 

Best of luck,

 

Bob

[Awqward]

As a newbie Mooney owner I was delighted today when ATC asked me to slow down during vectors for the ILS to 120kt or less...(from 150)....with power way back I had to wait some time to get to gear speed of 140...all while burning ~7.5 GPH in level flight...I'm more used to feeling guilty and being being asked what my maximum approach speed is and could I please maintain it! Gotta love those Mooneys!

[Raygun15E]

Bob,

 

You got that right. I went thru LAFB in '02, class 03-04. The town is much better than it was just 10yrs ago, but I wouldn't call it the garden spot of the US.

 

Regarding costs, I'm discussing a limited partnership with another IP here. It should work out nicely for both of us. Now to find a plane and take the dive...

[Epatry]

Chris,

What's the hanger situation like there? I'll be PCSing there in June with my E model to fly the much slower T-6.

Ed

[Marauder]

Thanks for all the info guys! Some of you are making it difficult to decide between a F and a J model. Just as you should! I know I've narrowed it down to the mid-length body since I want enough leg room for friends or if/when the kids need leg room in the future. Here's an example of an F model that's nearby I can easily check out. http://www.aso.com/listings/spec/ViewAd.aspx?id=144593&listingType=true&IsInternal=True&pagingNo=1&searchId=7728196&dealerid= 1968 M20F Turbo! All the speed mods you want, plus Gamijectors, JPI 700 & Garmin 430 tied into the pilot control yoke. 201 cowling, digital tach, vernier throttle/mixture/turbo, KT-76C transponder, ADC oil filter, Plane Power alternator, skytec starter, LASAR wingtips w/ anti-collision lights, one piece SWTA belly, flap/gap seals, one-piece windshield (not 201), PS6000M audio panel, 4-pl oxygen, precise flight speed brakes, 3-blade black-Mac Scimitar & fresh annual as of 1 Dec 2012. Logs missing prior to 1986, but a completely solid airplane. TTAF: 3684 Engine: 1611 SMOH Prop: 212 SPOH

There was substantial damage to this plane in 1975. Check out this site: http://www.aviationdb.com/Aviation/AircraftQuery.shtm

[chrisk]

There was substantial damage to this plane in 1975. Check out this site: http://www.aviationdb.com/Aviation/AircraftQuery.shtm

It's hard to tell how substantial the damage was, and the logs are missing.   The only details indicate an overrun.  I would get the FAA records and look at the 337s.  They might give a good idea of what was done.

 

Still for me, I would be very cautious based on the one piece belly and newer prop.  They are the tale tale signs of a gear up.  And as you can see, the missing logs and 40 year old damage history bring doubts and require further investigation.   I wouldn't touch this plane with out a very thorough pre-purchase by a Mooney expert and examination of the FAA records.  A good PPI will cost around $1000.  Money that is likely gone if anything major turns up.   This will play somewhat into the marketability, and value of the plane.  

[Cruiser]

After 40 years and 3,684 hrs. what exactly would you be looking for? 

[chrisk]

After 40 years and 3,684 hrs. what exactly would you be looking for? 

 

As far as the hours and years go.  I'd look at the AD 2012-03-52 as an example.   All M20s B through TN needed to perform the inspection to "detect incorrect positioning and improper attachment of the trim fitting, hinge, and filler plate of the tail pitch trim assembly".   --No exemptions were made due to age or hours on the airframe. 

 

For me, 40 year old damage on a plane that was 8 years old at the time, is probably something that was fixed properly by an insurance company.  Having said that, I would want to know what was replaced so I could see what was next to it, and to see that all looked good.  Who is to say a repair done 40 years and 3,684 hours ago was done right?  Who did it?  Was it the factory?  There is a 99.9% chance it was done correctly, but  if I'm buying, I would still want to look. 

 

And just as importantly, I would not walk away from a plane with 40 year old damage history.  I would however want to inspect the work and recognize there is some cost to doing that.

[Raygun15E]

Ed, I'm not sure exactly what the hanger situation is. I have yet to get any details on wait times. I do know a guy who hangared his Arrow at Uvalde for a couple months while waiting on hangar space. That is one of many things I've been procrastinating on...

 

I saw the "no brakes on IP side" incident report, but not the overrun portion. I'll be sure to look at the records and airplane. Obviously, I won't buy it without a prebuy inspection. That's one of many things I've learned here. I'll have to figure out when/why the one piece belly and new prop were installed. I haven't found anything yet in the recent history. I will need to get the records from OKC.

 

Thanks guys, never bad to get a second, third or more opinion. Less likely to make a mistake!

[chrisk]

. I will need to get the records from OKC.

 

 

There are services that will do this for you, and do it quickly.  If you have 2 or 3 weeks, http://aircraft.faa.gov/e.gov/nd/ is very cost effective and identical to what the more expensive services will do.

 

I also feel your pain on hanger space.   I'm in Austin TX, which has had a large population growth over the last 20 years.  I've been on the wait list at two airports KGTU and T74 for 2 years.   I'm still several years away from a private hanger.   KEDC is building hangers, but at $500 per month, and fuel is $1/gal higher than other local airports.  For now I am in a large group hanger.  You might try calling the local airports to see if a group hanger option is available.