Take a chance on me?

[47U]

1978 M20J for sale in NORCAL with 26 SMOH to new limits, 4 years ago. Has been sitting under a shade cover at DVT in Phoenix.

Worth a shot?

Run for the hills?

Or take a chance and look for a deal on camshafts (just in case)?

Is the dry climate in Phoenix enough reason to think the odds can be beat?

(Hmmm, sounds like a poll.)

Tom

[carusoam]

If it rusted, it's OH time again...

Pre purchase inspection is the key to success.

A qualified PPI can remove cylinders and inspect the cam.

Don't gamble on the weather at DVT or anyplace else....

IO 360s have been known to rust when sitting too long. Four years is in the long category.

Or negotiate the price accordingly.

Are you feeling lucky? Can you afford the overhaul if you lose the bet?

Best regards,

-a-

[201er]

Don't do it unless it's priced as thought it has a run down engine. Word of caution, prebuys often can't catch potential engine problems down the line (as result of sitting). Several of us here got 200 hours since purchase until the cam problems manifested. Don't trust the prebuy. The only way it's worth it is if it's priced like the engine is shot and then you see if that holds true or you win and get lucky.

[M016576]

It's worth it if the avionics are sound, the hull is corrosion free, and you discount the motor a bit.

I'd honestly be more worried that the engine didn't get a full break in, than the corrosion. Both could be factors in engine health down the line.

[carusoam]

201er speaks from experience on this one...

-a-

[tony]

Don't do it unless it's priced as thought it has a run down engine. Word of caution, prebuys often can't catch potential engine problems down the line (as result of sitting). Several of us here got 200 hours since purchase until the cam problems manifested. Don't trust the prebuy. The only way it's worth it is if it's priced like the engine is shot and then you see if that holds true or you win and get lucky.

 words of wisdom,   The worst thing you could ever do to an airplane is not use it.

[robert7467]

On mine it had 100 hrs since overhaul in 2008 so it did a lot of sitting. Engine was running rough, and one of the plugs was oil fouled. Told mechanic how we were running it, pulling the power back 25/26 on climb, and 22/23 on cruise, and he told me not to baby it. Since then I started running it at full power on climb, and 25/25 or 25/26 and the rings finally set, and she is using regular oil now, and now I can set back the power settings a little. That's just my 2 cents, and my plane is in muggy Memphis. Just be careful, and do a good prebuy, and there is a chance by simply running the hell out if it, that the engine can be salvaged.

[N201MKTurbo]

Nothing rusts in phoenix. You can sand a car down to bare metal and park it out side, a year later it will still be shiny.

 

If you are really worried pay someone to pull all the cylinders so you can inspect the cam and lifters. I just put all my cylinders on last night, my cam looks fine.

[47U]

I appreciate everyone's input... the motor is worrisome enough to not pull the trigger on this one.  The panel on this airplane original King IFR, 30+ years old, now, so another chunk of change to update.  A nice manual gear F with updated panel would be perfect, I think.

[WardHolbrook]

Yuup, what the others have said. Lack of use is just as bad as abuse. I'd rather assume the engine will have problems and be pleasantly surprised than vise-versa. 

[chrisk]

4 years is a long time to sit and I think the engine is a valid concern.   I'd probably try something creative, like lets go fly it for 30 hours.  If it looks good after that, then a pre-buy with a scope to look at the cams.

[BigTex]

Just curious... What are they asking and can you post pictures?

[47U]

It's listed on Controller.com and is located at Skywagons in Placerville, CA.

 

http://www.skywagons.com/_planes/4227H/4227H.html

[jetdriven]

Nothing rusts in phoenix. You can sand a car down to bare metal and park it out side, a year later it will still be shiny.

 

If you are really worried pay someone to pull all the cylinders so you can inspect the cam and lifters. I just put all my cylinders on last night, my cam looks fine.

It isnt the cam that fails, its the lifter faces. They rust and pit, then spall.  FWIW our engine had 3 destroyed lifters, but the camshaft looked serviceable except for the nose of one lobe.

[jetdriven]

75 grand is a little high for a non-updated early J with a problem engine and sitting 4 years.  Maybe they will make a deal.

[rbridges]

75 grand is a little high for a non-updated early J with a problem engine and sitting 4 years.  Maybe they will make a deal.

 

IMO, it's like they based the price on having low hours.  I think you can start getting mid hour J models at 70K, but it's been a while since I've followed the market.

[N201MKTurbo]

It isnt the cam that fails, its the lifter faces. They rust and pit, then spall.  FWIW our engine had 3 destroyed lifters, but the camshaft looked serviceable except for the nose of one lobe.

When I said the cam, I implied the lifters. I've seen pitted and spalled lifters before, always on planes that don't fly often. It just don't think it happens much here in Arizona. The current dewpoint is 26F for a relative humidity if 8%. That will dehydrate almost anything.

[carusoam]

When I said rusty cam, I meant need to overhaul based on Mike and Byron's experience...

My similar experience only cost me one cylinder. (stuck valve on TO)

M20C that sat outside for two years in NJ...

Best regards,

-a-

[201er]

Useful load is shit on that thing for such a meager panel. When they're listing map lights and oat gauges as features, you know there ain't much. That thing has to be a steal of a price to justify it. Assume without doubt that it's gonna need a lot of expensive upgrading.

[carusoam]

It doesn't have an annual...

It hasn't flown...

You haven't seen it in person...

The bottom side of the copilots wing has a few things that don't look right. Pictures don't tell the whole truth.

$25 k for an engine?

$10 k for a tank reseal?

$6 k for an old GPS/Com? Your cost, not the owners.

Unless you know what you are doing, you will find out soon enough afterwards.

Maybe the tanks don't leak, I would want to know. Maybe the engine is fine. Maybe you don't use GPS.

My first Mooney was in worse condition than this one. My second Mooney, had no risk involved with the purchase.

What's your risk tolerance on this?

I nice C is better than a basket case that you are financially anchored to... At least until you can make the judgement yourself.

Best regards,

-a-

[contrails]

They have had that Mooney (and another one) for sale for quite some time.

[chrisk]

I finally got around to looking at the pictures.   It's got old avionics, an old interior, and an engine that has been sitting for 4 years.     I'd probably walk away from this plane, because I suspect they wouldn't drop the price to the point where I could correct all of this.  Keep in mind, they are only asking $16K more for this plane at All American.  http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20J-201/1981-MOONEY-M20J-201/1281689.htm?dlr=1&pcid=17527  It's in annual with a recent tank reseal.  Having said that, I don't know the plane or how long it has been sitting.

[320KPH]

I'd make sure the auto pilot worked properly (as that model usually requires about $12K of rework by this time)

 

That prop may be reaching end of ;life too at this time. The interior panels are yellowed with age and the seats will need a re-trim soon too.

 

The condition of the glass (perspex) could be an issue as well.

 

I'd definitely fill it with fuel to check for leakage in the tanks too. A smell in the cabin may be gaskets, but obvious leaks from the wings are expensive.

 

That being said, it looks like a nice bird that you would have easily paid $100K for five years ago.

[PMac2277]

Guys, no matter what use or maintenance an aircraft has had, there are no guarantees. I purchased a 231 that had flown 3 hours the previous year and about 20 the year before that. The pre-buy inspection and repairs were done by a MSC. I flew the plane 13 hours the first day to get it home. Had one "dead stick" landing on the way home and noticed the engine sputtered anytime the throttle was retarded for landing. Once home, paid a local field mechanic $175 to figure out the fuel pressure was 40% below minimum allowable. Paid to have all corrosion corrected from the MSC prior to buying. Half ass doesn't begin to cover what I later found. Over the next 14 months I flew the plane 234 hours with virtually no problems. So whether a plane has or has not been flown means very little. Having an MSC do your pre-buy means very little.
 

I am once again shopping for a Mooney and I can tell you who will do the pre-buy, my A&P with me helping. I will personally inspect every inch of the aircraft with my own eyes. Assisting with my annual was the best thing I ever did. I understood every part of the aircraft and I was shocked to find corrosion on the aileron actuators and flap actuators that had obviously been there long before the MSC pre-buy annual. My advice to anyone  looking to purchase an aircraft is to inspect the plane with your mechanic. The recommendation to have 10% of your aircraft's value sitting in the bank to cover unexpected expenses is a good policy. Compression numbers are meaningless and anyone advertising them in the description is suspect at best.  I flew my plane 2 out of 3 days most of the time I owned it which certainly helped with the minimal maintenance issues but even that is no guarantee. Looking back I was very lucky to have bought and flown my plane that many hours with so few problems given the horrific pre-buy work. I am looking forward to being part of the Mooney family again. I never understood people's emotional attachment to their aircraft until my departed without me in it.
 

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard?

Interesting first post.

-a-