Portable ADS-B Solutions -- Moment of Truth!

[FlyDave]

As long as we're on  the subject.......

Here's an interesting thread on Beechtalk comparing refresh times and data value on XM vs. ADS-B:

 

http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=79023

[Marauder]

Amen, brother! For me it was updating FlightGuide, though, thin page by thin stinking page, and flying behind a single KX-170B, one half or the other of which often didn't work. This stuff is all just magic to me.

My VFR WingX subscription is $66/year, which is way, way less than I used to spend on paper, and it offers 100 times the situational awareness and, since it is backed up on my iPhone, total VFR redundancy.

Jim

Heck Jim! I forgot all about updating that stupid little FlightGuide book as well. Probably because I so intoxicated from the 6 pack while updating the Jepp charts!

[Marauder]

+1

(minus the Loran and GPS-55....I guess I didn't start flying as young as Marauder did)

Well Dave, back when I was a youngster I had to walk 12 miles to school, not to mention flying an approach without a moving map in my face.

Like many of us, I was weaned on the "old school" stuff. Not so old that I flew behind the Visual-Aural Range or heaven forbid, the old airmail light systems. But when LORAN hit, I thought the future had arrived. Little did any of us know the impact GPS would have. I can still remember the day I open the Garmin GPS-55 box. Look at where we are today!

http://www.ebay.com/ctg/Garmin-GPS-55-AVD-Handheld-GPS-Receiver-/72096396

[Bob_Belville]

I started flying in 1968. before anyone could spell GPS. 30 years ago I paid my then 10 year old daughter to file Eastern US Jepp charts into 3 2" binders. (That was a win/win deal she still remembers fondly.).

But you couldn't pay me to shoot another NDB 3 approach into MRN with a 20k crosswind. Or pick my way blind through the lines of CBs that always lie across the GA/FL border. 

 

I invested in a Ryan stormscope and a Narco RNAV,and an STEC A/P in the early 80s. My neck is worth more (to me) than $1.98.

 

We live in a time where navigation and weather are very seldom an issue for an instrument pilot... because of the technology.

 

(I also had to dead stick a Mooney in NJ after swallowing a valve, no doubt after hundreds of hours running in the Red Zone pre EDMs.) 

 

Bob

[1964-M20E]

Bob

 

Nice panel I'm sure quite different form when you started flying. When I started LORAN had just started making its way into airplanes but I learned on VORs never had an ADF in any of the planes I flew and did not use the LORAN in the ones that had it.  Most of the planes only had one VOR.  No IFR flying for me in those days it was all visual with a sectional chart at 2500 feet   

 

Yes technology has made it nice to see and avoid bad weather in IMC conditions.

[Bob_Belville]

John, you did not miss much with ADF. My first E has one that was analog tuning much like an old AM radio. After a while, I did add a little display that showed the freq digitally which was a great improvement. It was still vital to listen to the Morse code to identify the NDB (or a commercial AM station.)

 

Our NDB was 6.8 miles from the runway. Flying the approach meant having a pretty good sense of geometry as you kept the needle pointing at a constant difference from the DG heading in a cross wind until station passage and then kept it offset by the same amount but pointed backwards. As you descended the wind would probably change. A big workload while flying the plane. (The approach kept you @ 5000' until within 10 miles (you had to calculate that, down to 4000 when established on the final because of high terrain, upon crossing the NDB descend to 1740 in about 5 miles to the 1266' airport.)  The alternative was to shoot the ILS at HKY 25 miles away and call the wife for a ride. Been there, done that, and really am glad to tell war stories that we don't have to live again!

[Marauder]

When I was preparing for my instrument checkride I would wake up with night sweats over them. I had a non slaved ADF and it was occassionally a little flaky on some frequencies. I hated flying them in gusty conditions. When I took my checkride and passed, the DPE made a comment that I flew the NDB like a "pigeon heading to the coop". To this day I still don't know if that was a compliment or a criticism  

 

When I started my upgrades, the ADF was the first to go!

[1964-M20E]

My former E had an ADF in it my current F does not. I played around with NDB approaches in my E but I only shot one during my IR training but not for the check ride.  The examiner different even ask about it I guess since I had IFR rated GPS in the plane.  I would use it to triple check my location from known NDBs along my route.  Not long before I started my IR training the closest NDB approach was decommissioned.

 

As for tuning in AM stations it was always good for heading back to New Orleans just tune in 800 WWL AM it is a 100kW station you could pick it up almost anywhere but I could never get into listening to it since I was concentrating on flying my E did not have an autopilot.

[Marauder]

As for tuning in AM stations it was always good for heading back to New Orleans just tune in 800 WWL AM it is a 100kW station you could pick it up almost anywhere but I could never get into listening to it since I was concentrating on flying my E did not have an autopilot.

 

That was the best part, tuning in the football game on a Sunday afternoon flight.

[Bob_Belville]

In some parts of the world ADFs are still needed. I sold a KR87 on EBAY for $880 last year when I redid the panel. The buyer was based in Western Canada. I got more for it than for the KNS80, KY197 or 2 KT76As. All were working when removed.

[Marauder]

In some parts of the world ADFs are still needed. I sold a KR87 on EBAY for $880 last year when I redid the panel. The buyer was based in Western Canada. I got more for it than for the KNS80, KY197 or 2 KT76As. All were working when removed.

Darn it Bob! I made my into a boat anchor! Wish I had known

[chrisk]

Hey, I have working KR87 with indicator that just came out of my plane.  Maybe there is some hope!

[Bob_Belville]

Hey, I have working KR87 with indicator that just came out of my plane.  Maybe there is some hope!

Who knew? The KR87 is a good and desirable ADF. $880 is not to sneeze at even after paying EBAY (too much) commission. Offer it somewhere that exposes it to Canada and export. The guy that bought mine had me ship it to his sister in California.

 

I sold 19 items that we pulled out of the panel for over $6000, considerably more than the avionics shop could offer. Bennett, the big used avionics dealer, bought a KY197 for over $600 through EBAY.

[Marauder]

Who knew? The KR87 is a good and desirable ADF. $880 is not to sneeze at even after paying EBAY (too much) commission. Offer it somewhere that exposes it to Canada and export. The guy that bought mine had me ship it to his sister in California.

 

I sold 19 items that we pulled out of the panel for over $6000, considerably more than the avionics shop could offer. Bennett, the big used avionics dealer, bought a KY197 for over $600 through EBAY.

 

You mean I could have gotten money for this junk? I did sell some stuff and hoarded the rest. 

 

[liadbiton]

Hi Guys, first post, new pilot :-)

 

When I bought my Mooney (64 M20C) I made a conscious decision to spend my money on a good engine and add-ons (Like O&N bladders etc) rather then avionics.

 

Being a computer guy my plan was to get as much as I can out of my iPad.  So here is my current setup:

iPad Mini on a Ram Mount = $400 on eBay.
iLevil SW (the cheaper option) = $1,200 from Ilevil

Zaon XRX = $850 from eBay (took a while to find one under $1,000)
iLevil DB9 to Audio Jack Cable (to hookup the Zaon to the iLevili unit) = $50
WingX Pro with Synthetic Vision = $150/year
Spot Connect = $100/year (tracking / PLB / letting people know we will be there earlier then expected.. its a Mooney after all :-) )

 

Now granted this is a lot of money if you put it all together, but I believe that no other combination would give me GPS, Moving Map, ADS-B Weather, AHRS and all the traffic out there for less.  Also since everything is wireless I use my iPhone as a backup to the iPad without spending another dime.

 

For a pure VFR pilot this is simply amazing.

 

Will post pictures soon

 

Liad
(San Diego, CA)

[Piloto]

Hi Guys, first post, new pilot :-)

 

When I bought my Mooney (64 M20C) I made a conscious decision to spend my money on a good engine and add-ons (Like O&N bladders etc) rather then avionics.

 

Being a computer guy my plan was to get as much as I can out of my iPad.  So here is my current setup:

iPad Mini on a Ram Mount = $400 on eBay.

iLevil SW (the cheaper option) = $1,200 from Ilevil

Zaon XRX = $850 from eBay (took a while to find one under $1,000)

iLevil DB9 to Audio Jack Cable (to hookup the Zaon to the iLevili unit) = $50

WingX Pro with Synthetic Vision = $150/year

Spot Connect = $100/year (tracking / PLB / letting people know we will be there earlier then expected.. its a Mooney after all :-) )

 

Now granted this is a lot of money if you put it all together, but I believe that no other combination would give me GPS, Moving Map, ADS-B Weather, AHRS and all the traffic out there for less.  Also since everything is wireless I use my iPhone as a backup to the iPad without spending another dime.

 

For a pure VFR pilot this is simply amazing.

 

Will post pictures soon

 

Liad

(San Diego, CA)

Your list add up to about $3,000 plus $250/year on subscription. If you get a Garmin 550 ($1000) and the ADSB GDL-39 ($700) it adds up to $1700 with no yearly subscription. I never had a problem texting my arrival party my ETA with my Samsung S3, plus I can receive text. 

 

José

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Liad!

-a-

[liadbiton]

Thank u carusoam :-)

Jose, the 550 has no AHRS, No traffic, 5 inch screen and u do need to buy updates every year. I think my setup wins :-)

Liad

[Piloto]

Thank u carusoam :-)

Jose, the 550 has no AHRS, No traffic, 5 inch screen and u do need to buy updates every year. I think my setup wins :-)

Liad

On page 5-4 of the GDL-39 users manual it shows that the 550 will show 30 targets and WX. You can opt for the 796 that has a bigger screen and synthetic vision. It will display a runway view and terrain in 3D.

I have myself a G560 and found several features not available on the tablets

1. On the 560 map text is always up right in tracking mode vs upside down on the tablets when tracking south

2. On the 560 maps can be declutter for easier readability. There is no decluttering on the tablets

3. On the 560 you have vertical and horizontal guidance (synthetic HSI) down to the approach procedures. I found this very helpful in nasty weather. I have not seen this on the tablets

4. On the 560 you have the OBS function that allows you to select an specific track to an airportor wpt. Very useful for airports with no approach on some runways.

5. On the 560 you have voice warnings for terrain, obstacles and traffic. I love the 500ft alert on approaches. It alerts you that you are close to DH. Have not seen this on the tablets

6. Terrain and aviation database for regions outside the US. Very handy for me when ferrying to South America or Europe. Have not seen this on the tablets.

The 796 has additional features over the 560.

Tablets have very nice display but for me I found the Garmin products to be more practical and useful.

José

[jetdriven]

On page 5-4 of the GDL-39 users manual it shows that the 550 will show 30 targets and WX. You can opt for the 796 that has a bigger screen and synthetic vision. It will display a runway view and terrain in 3D.

 

I have myself a G560 and found several features not available on the tablets

 

1. On the 560 map text is always up right in tracking mode vs upside down on the tablets when tracking south

2. On the 560 maps can be declutter for easier readability. There is no decluttering on the tablets

3. On the 560 you have vertical and horizontal guidance (synthetic HSI) down to the approach procedures. I found this very helpful in nasty weather. I have not seen this on the tablets

4. On the 560 you have the OBS function that allows you to  select an specific track to an airportor wpt. Very useful for airports with no approach on some runways.

5. On the 560 you have voice warnings for terrain, obstacles and traffic. I love the 500ft alert on approaches. It alerts you that you are close to DH. Have not seen this on the tablets

6. Terrain and aviation database for regions outside the US. Very handy for me when ferrying to South America or Europe. Have not seen this on the tablets.

 

The 796 has additional features over the 560.

 

Tablets have very nice display but for me I found the Garmin portables to be more practical and useful.

 

José   

 

1. Garmin PIlot has many of these features, it uses the same GDL-39 and has traffic and weather. You can also select track or north up, 2. The Garmin VFR map can be decluttered by deselecting navaids, airways, waypoints, etc.

3. We have the Aera 500 and it has the vertical path advisory for descent planning, but it goes away on the approach.

4. This is a FF thing but it has extended centrlines much like the Aera.  I personally dont consider it a big deal, if you can't line up for a 5 mile final for RWY 18 without a GPS extended centerline then perhaps a few lessons are in order.

5. FF has terrain alerts if you want to pay for it, but yes, the Aera can be wired to feed them into the intercom. I find the terrain and obstacle alerts to be way too sensitive, it starts alerting "obstacle" about 90 seconds away from an antenna, even when you have visual on it and are going to miss it by one mile or 10 degrees. Additionally, one airport isnt in the Aera database to inhibit alerts on final, at 1000 feet on final it starts lertinf for terrain and will not cancel unless you turn off the audio.

6. I agree, the Aera is far better than the ipad programs for Mexico, Canada can be purchased from FF for extra.

 

Personally I have Garmin Pilot, an Aera 500, and FF.   The weather displays much better on the iPad/iPhone as well. I always bring my iPhone, but on nice days I have been leaving the ipad at home. The Aera 500 in the panel dock more than meets the needs of a regional VFR flight.

[Piloto]

3. We have the Aera 500 and it has the vertical path advisory for descent planning, but it goes away on the approach.

 

On my 560 I have verical guidance (glide slope) all the way down to 500ft AGL, including all the approaches. Check your VNAV page settings. 

 

Unlike the tablets on the Navigation Display of large aircraft B777, A380 and others you will notice there is no moving map but the waypoints of interest against a black back ground with an arc compass card superimposed. This decluttered display is the same as on the Garmin 530 nav mode page 1. It accentuates the display contrast against sunlight and provides the pilot with a simpler uncluttered picture to look at. The compass arc is very useful in assessing heading changes. On the 560 you get the compass arc in track up mode and can declutter the display in steps. Very well thought out.

 

B777 Displays https://www.google.com/search?q=B777+Navigation+Display&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=yWAhUte_BJS6sASPsYDYDA&ved=0CCkQsAQ&biw=1119&bih=606

 

GNS 530 Display https://www.google.com/search?q=B777+Navigation+Display&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=yWAhUte_BJS6sASPsYDYDA&ved=0CCkQsAQ&biw=1119&bih=606#q=Garmin+GNS+530+display&tbm=isch&imgdii=

 

 

 

 

José  

[liadbiton]

Hi guys,

Ads-b in without an out gives a very limited picture of traffic. To my knowledge, only the ILevil can accommodate both ads-b and TCAS traffic by hooking up a zaon unit. This gives a full picture of what is out there. Also, having everything working on wifi allows me to use my iPhone as backup, try that on the 560.

I completely agree that for Mexico flying I will need to get another setup, but for 99% of my flights this is pretty cool.

[DAVIDWH]

Presently have:

 

FOR ADSB out: Garmin 330 xponder with ES.

 

FOR Traffic watch: Monroy ADT 300 with ext. antenna, Tina will announce all traffic in your headset and will show on G750 visually. Transponder to transponder, not ground based (ADSB tower) related.

 

FOR Free Weather: Stratus, 2nd. gen, as well as traffic. Gives (Hockey puck) all traffic within 30 mile dia and 3500 ft.

Problem with stratus traffic: No audio, need eyes on screen, need ADSB out for full traffic coverage, visual distraction. 

 

So, two ladies in the cockpit, Tina announcing traffic and Sarah with the AOA indicator saying "You're getting slow now".

 

Not sure how Lindberg ever did it, are we spoiled or what??

[1964-M20E]

Spoiled yes when I think back to the late 80s flying a C150 with single VOR and a sectional.

[captainglen]

  With ADSB you do not pick up the replies that is what TCAD does. The replies are picked up by the interrogating radar installation and then rebroadcast to you in a geographically encoded format along with other information including weather. The results are quite similar except since TCAD toes not know exactly where it is or where the other traffic is it only knows how far away it is and what the altitude separation is. TCAS directly interrogates other aircraft and has a directional antenna which can give you a rough position for threat traffic.

  I fund My Dual brand receiver works just fine with Foreflight except I have to go into setup to select it each time I use it otherwise it will not be recognized. I have heard others report that Ilevil units work well with foreflight also. I like many others prefer Foreflight because of the confidence it gives me with regard to airspaces which have over the years become quite complex. The other reason I like foreflight is that it is fully legal as a paperless chart system. I do wish that Terminal Area Charts were included.