VFR into IMC

[BigTex]

Robert - I still consider myself a relatively low time pilot and I already have a list of "events" that could fill a book.  I've had a wrench left in a tail of a Decathlon by a mechanic that lodged in the tail causing the elevator to lock up (caught on pre-flight!). I've met aircraft taking off the opposite way right at my flair.  I've had my cabin fill up with smoke from when a mechanic forgot to rinse off engine cleaner resulting in an emergency return to the field.  I've had numerous instrumentation malfunctions as well as engine issues.  We all have tons of stories.  Why do you think pilots like to hangar fly?  We all think we have a story that can top the other guy!

 

Maybe put a hold on taking passengers and start work on your instrument.  When you have your IR, you'll have much more training under your belt and experience.  Then you'll likely fill confident in your ability and ready to take passengers again.   

 

As others have said, you have to learn from it (which you did) and move on.  If on the other hand you still can't get past this, maybe flying isn't for you.  It's not for everyone.

[robert7467]

I just need a little time to put myself back together, after all, it was a pretty traumatic experience. Thank you guys for all of your support. I just wanted to tell my story, to prevent it from happening to others. I especially want other CFII's to see this, and start implementing acutal weather into their training for PPL.

[thinwing]

Robert you have mentioned several times during your posts your doubts about continuing flying at all after this last experience.I hate to suggust this in a forum as I cant speak to you one on one but if you really feel that unhinged by this experience than i recomend you stand down from flying.I have introduced several friends to pvt aviation and have seen that it isnt for everyone.I remember reading a essay on fear and how a little fear is a good thing..too much and it robs you of rational thought,paralysing rather than getting you thru...By now you probably have a good idea where you are headed after this experience..one thing if you are really starting to doubt your piloting abilty after this rather than "well I did a dumb thing flying vfr that day "and moving on...there is no shame to simply admit flying is not for you...if you are really having flash backs when you look at clouds or feeling guilt because you put your children in potential danger...please donot take them flying again until you work this thru ..maybe with a instructor..i might be totally wrong but I sense you have lost self confidence in your piloting and decision making..k

[Oscar Avalle]

Robert you have mentioned several times during your posts your doubts about continuing flying at all after this last experience.I hate to suggust this in a forum as I cant speak to you one on one but if you really feel that unhinged by this experience than i recomend you stand down from flying.I have introduced several friends to pvt aviation and have seen that it isnt for everyone.I remember reading a essay on fear and how a little fear is a good thing..too much and it robs you of rational thought,paralysing rather than getting you thru...By now you probably have a good idea where you are headed after this experience..one thing if you are really starting to doubt your piloting abilty after this rather than "well I did a dumb thing flying vfr that day "and moving on...there is no shame to simply admit flying is not for you...if you are really having flash backs when you look at clouds or feeling guilt because you put your children in potential danger...please donot take them flying again until you work this thru ..maybe with a instructor..i might be totally wrong but I sense you have lost self confidence in your piloting and decision making..k

Excellent recommendation.

[robert7467]

thinwing. I agree with you 100%. I will probably resume my flying again soon, it’s just after this experience its best for me to take a couple steps back, think about the situation, and defiantly get more training. I have always took flying seriously, but now I have to be humbled by this experience, and I have a duty to tell others so they can avoid it. It’s amazing  how when you are in a situation how words of what others echoed to you go through your mind. In my case it was “don’t look out the window, scan your instruments”, and that’s why I am here today to talk about it. I know I sound emotional in my post, which I am, but I really want to drive down my point. I know in my post I am in panic mode, but while all this was going on, I remained calm and worked through the situation. I know I am a good pilot, I love to fly, but at the same time I must always be thinking about the hazards and stay humbled.

[201er]

Robert you have mentioned several times during your posts your doubts about continuing flying at all after this last experience.I hate to suggust this in a forum as I cant speak to you one on one but if you really feel that unhinged by this experience than i recomend you stand down from flying.I have introduced several friends to pvt aviation and have seen that it isnt for everyone.I remember reading a essay on fear and how a little fear is a good thing..too much and it robs you of rational thought,paralysing rather than getting you thru...By now you probably have a good idea where you are headed after this experience..one thing if you are really starting to doubt your piloting abilty after this rather than "well I did a dumb thing flying vfr that day "and moving on...there is no shame to simply admit flying is not for you...if you are really having flash backs when you look at clouds or feeling guilt because you put your children in potential danger...please donot take them flying again until you work this thru ..maybe with a instructor..i might be totally wrong but I sense you have lost self confidence in your piloting and decision making..k

Great point. This is why it's not a good idea to invest in an airplane until you are well-established enough in the hobby to be certain it is the right thing for you. Also why it's good to gradually build experience a little at a time rather than get your plane, ticket, and then hop on a long cross country flight with precious cargo on board. Most pilot-error related accidents started with a bad attitude.

[Jeff_S]

"The unexamined life is not worth living."  (Plato, or Socrates, depenidng on which version of Wikipedia you want to use.)

 

"It's my wife and kid, sir. I almost orphaned him today....I'm holding on too tight."  (Cougar)

 

Yes, think about and learn from your experiences, but don't throw your wings on the table and drop out.  Notice that I said "experiences" and not "mistakes" because I don't think you made a mistake. I think YOU think you made a mistake, but that's just because you haven't gained enough distance from it yet. In time you will realize that this is one of the best things that can happen in your flying career. You got into a situation, you handled it, and you lived to fly another day.

 

Now just go flying!

[gsengle]

Yes, that's enough equipment for IFR, assuming all of the other equipment requirements are met.  You must have your altimeter and transponder/encoding altimeter tested, for instance.  The GPS, assuming it will be IFR certified, would be a good choice to replace one of the VOR's, IMHO.

 

that said, many people consider at least a basic autopilot to be a must for serious IFR.  not for your training, but IFR without an autopilot can be tough/exhausting.  I consider it a safety item.

[201er]

that said, many people consider at least a basic autopilot to be a must for serious IFR.  not for your training, but IFR without an autopilot can be tough/exhausting.  I consider it a safety item.

So if your autopilot went inop, you would be an unsafe pilot????? :blink:

 

I just don't buy that. I have done a bunch of IFR cross countries where I've forgotten to even use the single axis century IIb. I consider it a convenience item and sometimes it is nice to use to hold a heading while I prepare other things. But I can just as well fly single pilot IFR in turbulence and manage the plane without the device.

[1964-M20E]

Robert

Do not give up unless you really feel you have lost your edge to borrow a line form Top Gun.

I had a real eye-opening experience not too long ago that made me thank the Lord I was on the ground in one piece and when I got back to the hangar. When I got home I gave my wife and my dog an extra kiss. I have not even told her about it. I wrote out a “near miss “ (if you have ever worked in a plant or industry it is common)for myself. I listed what happened, what I did wrong, what I did right and what I learned in the process.

I suggest you do the same it will help you go through your thoughts and actions one step at a time and you can put together the things you did wrong, learned and most importantly what you did that was right. You did do many things right on the you were able to put your training, experience and knowledge to work to have a good outcome on the flight. I also got back into the air quickly albeit on a clear day but it did not take long and I was back into IMC.

[robert7467]

I know I kept talking about "if I fly again", but now I am starting to think rationally vs. emotionally. It just takes time.

[Jeff_S]

So if your autopilot went inop, you would be an unsafe pilot????? :blink:

 

I just don't buy that. I have done a bunch of IFR cross countries where I've forgotten to even use the single axis century IIb. I consider it a convenience item and sometimes it is nice to use to hold a heading while I prepare other things. But I can just as well fly single pilot IFR in turbulence and manage the plane without the device.

 

No fair, though, because you've got your parrots helping out.

[201er]

You got me

 

[robert7467]

There was a story in the Jeppeson Private Pilot study book that talked about this guy flying with goats in Alaska. He had the goats all tied up so his W&B numbers would be good. As he was flying the goats chewed the rope up, and started running around the plane, which messed up the balance. The goats then started eating his seats. I forgot how he got the plane down.

 

That story reminds me of 201er.

 

201er is cruising along the Hudson and there is a thunderstorm to the right of him. The parrot gets excited when he sees lightning and starts jumping down on the yoke and disengages the autopilot. The other parrot sitting on 201er’s should decides he wants to join in on the action. So the parrot on his shoulder decides he wants to nibble on 201er’s ear, and 201er is wondering WTH and looks over at the parrot who then starts biting 201er’s nose. While this is all going on, with the weight on the other parrot on the yoke, the plane starts turning into the thunderstorm. The rest of the story, to be continued….

[gsengle]

So if your autopilot went inop, you would be an unsafe pilot????? :blink:

 

I just don't buy that. I have done a bunch of IFR cross countries where I've forgotten to even use the single axis century IIb. I consider it a convenience item and sometimes it is nice to use to hold a heading while I prepare other things. But I can just as well fly single pilot IFR in turbulence and manage the plane without the device.

 

Read what I wrote.  I didn't say you'd be an unsafe pilot.  But I do believe you might just be a less safe pilot.

 

I still might drive a car without ABS and consider it safe enough, but generally ABS improves safety.

 

If you use your autopilot as so much of a crutch that you let your IMC skills atrophy, sure it isn't enhancing safety.  But consider how much more strategic you can be about a flight if your focus isn't drawn so heavily every moment to just keeping upright.  Easier to check weather, to watch the engine, to deal with an emergency. It gives you MARGIN.  Even just reduction of fatigue gives you margin.

 

Consider the new instrument pilot that is starting to get overwhelmed, or does get overwhelmed.  He will be safer if he can get a momentary assist with straight and level to pull out a chart etc.

 

So yes, I consider it a safety item and wouldn't personally fly in IMC long distances without it.  Do I use it when I practice?  Minimally.  Can I fly with out it?  Absolutely.  But margin is reduced, imho.

 

g

[marks]

Robert, I can completely identify with your strong sense of responsibility to your family.  It's true that you don't have to be a pilot.  In 1991 I flew my three sons from the east coast to San Diego and on the way home I left Yuma AZ with the advice that if I followed the highway east at low altitude, that the dessert wouldn't produce nearly so much turbulence.  So I followed the road, flying to the right of it and many miles later the highway snaked into a canyon and the highway entered a tunnel!!  I barely made it out the top of the canyon straight ahead.  I landed and experienced serious guilt like you describe.  The next day I started home.  I never got over it to this day, but in time I realized that past performance does not predict future results.  You can be a safe pilot.  If you get the IR just use it to get out of trouble, not into deeper trouble.  You see now how pushing the VFR limits can lead to danger and those pilots who push the instrument limits can experience just as much danger.  Give yourself some time.  Then please check back with all of us.  One way or the other, the love of flying is nothing like the love of your loved ones.  Yet, the safest pilot I know calls himself a "scaredy cat".  -  It seems to me that you have no fear of excellent weather, close to home, so try that before making any final decisions and see how it all feels.  My guess is that you will be a very safe pilot.  

[robert7467]

I will defiantly stay active on this board, I have pretty much chronicled my whole journey towards a PPL on here.

[Marauder]

No fair, though, because you've got your parrots helping out.

 

Now that is some funny stuff!

 

I can see it now (said in my best parrot impersonation voice), "AAAAH, fly 090, aaah, descend and maintain 2000, aaaaah proceed direct CRAKR". What an autopilot!!

[Marauder]

Read what I wrote.  I didn't say you'd be an unsafe pilot.  But I do believe you might just be a less safe pilot.

 

I still might drive a car without ABS and consider it safe enough, but generally ABS improves safety.

 

If you use your autopilot as so much of a crutch that you let your IMC skills atrophy, sure it isn't enhancing safety.  But consider how much more strategic you can be about a flight if your focus isn't drawn so heavily every moment to just keeping upright.  Easier to check weather, to watch the engine, to deal with an emergency. It gives you MARGIN.  Even just reduction of fatigue gives you margin.

 

Consider the new instrument pilot that is starting to get overwhelmed, or does get overwhelmed.  He will be safer if he can get a momentary assist with straight and level to pull out a chart etc.

 

So yes, I consider it a safety item and wouldn't personally fly in IMC long distances without it.  Do I use it when I practice?  Minimally.  Can I fly with out it?  Absolutely.  But margin is reduced, imho.

 

g

 

I never understood why the autopilot debate exists. It's a tool just like every other piece of hardware in the plane. Do I not use my MFD because "real men use charts". Fly enough hard IFR, an autopilot is a welcomed addition to the tool bag.

 

Even the real men use it to fly Cat IIIb approaches...

[BigTex]

Even the real men use it to fly Cat IIIb approaches...

 

Only because they don't have a choice!

[Cruiser]

Pilot becomes disoriented in the haze. Two parrots, passengers in the plane,  calmly take control and talk pilot down to safely land at destination.

 

 

News at 11..............

[Marauder]

Pilot becomes disoriented in the haze. Two parrots, passengers in the plane,  calmly take control and talk pilot down to safely land at destination.

 

 

News at 11..............

 

After a crappy day at work, I needed this humor! Thanks!

[robert7467]

Just FYI after watching a couple IFR videos, and seeing what I went through is normal for a IFR pilot is helping me a lot. Is what I went through freaking me out? Yes, and it should. If that was not an awakening issue, then I shouldn't be flying.

[scottfromiowa]

The "illusion" of a wall of clouds ahead is not uncommon. I flew to Arkansas a couple weeks ago at 3500 feet with my wife. It is in flight aware. Had 175 knots for a while. I stayed low, but could have flown higher. Cursed the wall of clouds...and the horrible briefing I received. I have come down from partly cloudy...but getting more solid many times. Oh well, worth piece of mind in not getting stuck on top. You will grow more comfortable with this wall look as you fly more. In my mind your decision to go lower was not wrong. You were being cautious. You made the right decision not to continue. Fly solo. Get back up. Enough beating yourself up already. Your family is fine. So are you...and quit jumping out of perfectly good airplanes and riding dirt bikes...your a father for Christ sakes...

[tomn]

I'll jump in here with a few thoughts:

- Get your instrument rating - it is one of the best things you can do if you fly X/C. Be sure you find a CFII that is really good - one who makes it really hard - what they will teach you will make all the difference one day. Mine made me do zero visibility takeoffs almost everytine we flew (thats foggles on heading down the runway looking only at the DG). I would never do that in real coditions, but you get the point.

-Always call flight service and get a briefing from a real person every time you file for a X/C flight. More than once I have chnaged my plans after talking through the details with a briefer. Make it the routine and don't deviate. It also gets you on tape in case you need it later.

-Don't be so hard on yourself - you did great. As many others have said, we have been there. Thats what prompted me to get my instrument raating. Your instrument rating will not prevent tricky situations if you continue to expand your envelope and level of exerience. Other situations will come - be prepeared and work through them - and learn.

-You obviously are serious about flying or you would not be talking about it here. Everyone who gets their private ticket needs to truly understand it is a license to learn - you have just done some of this. Grow from it and continue moving forward - and keep learning.

-Go out and get in the clouds. You may learn to love it!

-Congratulations on a job well done! I'll fly with you anytime.

-