need Avionics advice

[mooniac58]

Let me pile on; another innovation, their PFD/MFD reversion also is now able to take over full autopilot control. In the past, during reversion, you lost AP control. Now you can throw a switch and have full GPSS and Nav control sent over to the AP from the MFD. a picture of the switch: ImageUploadedByTapatalk1368043162.420609.jpg With their new ADSB solution, you can purchase the CG50 interface and now do a WiFi connection from your portable ADSB receiver and display weather on your panel mounted Aspen products. http://www.aspenavionics.com/products/nextgen/cg50

 

I actually have their pre-release version of this switch (thanks Peter!). Very cool to not lose use your autopilot if your PFD dies on you.

 

That ADS-B wifi receiver is very cool - I wonder why they are not using it to relay traffic as well?  

[Marauder]

 

That ADS-B wifi receiver is very cool - I wonder why they are not using it to relay traffic as well?  

 

 

Probably because too much Aspen innovation would kill either Garmin or allsmiles... One thing for sure, I'm glad allsmiles is not my dentist. He is probably so irritated at me, he would pull all my teeth even though I was in for a cleaning  (where's my teeth allsmiles?!)

[PTK]

Nobody answered the question. Why then is Aspen complaining about Garmin? If they have all that "innovation" they shouldn't care about what G does!

[John Pleisse]

They aren't. They quietly go about their business. It was YOU who inadvertently proclaimed that Garmin was the only solution. Serious, Peter, look into the Aspen products. It really is impressive and likely why David has chosen the PFD. Smart move.

[Cruiser]

Nobody answered the question. Why then is Aspen complaining about Garmin? If they have all that "innovation" they shouldn't care about what G does!

because there are many planes out there with Garmin GPS installed that Aspen could interface with IF Garmin would open up and share the interfacing code which they absolutely refuse to do. (or require an very large fee for)

Aspen could provide a very attractive package of features (that Garmin does not offer) if Garmin would publish the data.

In the end it is the customer (plane owner) that suffers.

I hear many more complaints about Garmin's arrogant attitude than I hear about their great innovation and value added to aviation.

[davidsguerra]

LOL so would it be better to get a gns 480 /650 combo to interface with gmx 200 or get a 750/650 combo? i have read where some feature of the 480 are lacking on the gtn series

 

the aspen ads B receiver looks interesting. SInce I am pretty sure i am getting the 330ES xponder  I  would only need a receiver and the the GDL 88 has 978 out. the garmin rep told me it would broadcast both if paired with the 330 es which seems like a waste.  if they would only make an ads B receiver with 1090ES out. The Freeflight system one looks too small to operate effectively. the garmin 330es looks more user friendly. 

 

if the GDL 88 would show traffic and wx through the 530w  to the gmx 200 i could get the gdl 88 and upgrade to the GTN series later if i wanted too. the Garmin rep  at sun& fun said that they would probably support the GMX  200 in the future but he doesnt know when.  which means if i get a non garmin ads b receiver installed now it would work on my 530w and gmx 200 but i would have to replace it later if i upgraded to the GTN series if i wanted targettrend. i wonder SURF/Targettrend is going to be worth having when eventually everyone has ads B out. it might save me from getting a TAS system . or maybe not. that is my quandry right now.  that and will the avidyne ifd 540 /440 combo play well with the gmx 200 and be worth waiting for. especially since i favor the avidyne 605 system.

 

BTW anyone want to buy a 530W/gmx 200 combo and make the decision easy for me?

[mooniac58]

I personally have never heard Aspen complain about Garmin.  Their rep I spoke with in Santa Fe just told me the facts - which was that their system could only partially interface with GNS 430/530 units and not at all with GTN series gps systems (last I heard these are locked down so tight Aspen does not expect to "crack the code" and interface with them).  They explained that there was nothing they could do as Garmin is not working with them to open the communications up.  He never badmouthed them or told me what to buy or not buy.  He also warned me to make sure that if I send my Garmin 430W unit in for service to make sure in the notes I specified *not* to allow them to upgrade to the latest version as it includes new code to block the Aspen Connected Panel system from interfacing with the GPS.  Apparently if you specify this Garmin will leave the software version intact and not upgrade.

 

Confronted with facts like this, I make my own decision as a consumer not to install any new Garmin products in my aircraft.  I believe companies have the right to do whatever they want with their products, just as I have the choice to consume them or not to.  Vote with your wallet ;-)

[PTK]

They quietly go about their business.

because there are many planes out there with Garmin GPS installed that Aspen could interface with IF Garmin would open up and share the interfacing code which they absolutely refuse to do.

I personally have never heard Aspen complain about Garmin.

Actually they are complaining like cry babies! They, along with VoiceFlight, have gone as far as accusing G of violating US Antitrust laws! Something analogous to Microsoft. I think this is hilarious!

G innovates from the ground up and has no obligation whatsoever to third party vendors who reverse engineer their products to latch onto Garmin's! Why should they concern themselves with accommodating another company? Their responsibility is their products and STC's. They dominate precisely because they constantly innovate and the market likes their products.

It is incumbent upon those third parties to warn their customers and fully disclose that they have no relationship with G but do depend on Garmin, and that their product may not work if G chooses to change their protocol at any time. They're misleading their customers if they don't fully and clearly disclose this!

Seems to me they need to stop crying over spilled milk and start innovating from the ground up. This is how they can become real competition for Garmin. Competition is created by real innovation and not by latching on to somebody else's technology and then complaining when it doesn't work! G is acting in their own interest and frankly why shouldn't they? They're in the left seat all alone because they can and do.

My advice to Aspen is to stop bitching and start innovating on your own. Get in the left seat, any left seat...if you can!

[bnicolette]

http://www.abqjournal.com/main/2013/05/08/biz/aspen-joins-forces-with-italian-investor.html

[davidsguerra]

so per my avionics guy the GDL 88 will accept TAS input and prioritize the traffic so that there is no duplicate images. that was a smart idea by garmin.  im going with

GTN 650/750 / gtx 330 es / gdl 88/ garmin 350 and and aspen 1000 pro.

[RocketAviator]

so per my avionics guy the GDL 88 will accept TAS input and prioritize the traffic so that there is no duplicate images. that was a smart idea by garmin.  im going with

GTN 650/750 / gtx 330 es / gdl 88/ garmin 350 and and aspen 1000 pro.

 

Congratulations on your decision.  I too struggled with what to do.  I liked the Aspen too.  After much aggravation in making a decision (either would have been a good choice for me) My panel consists of a G500 with SVT, GTN 750 & GTN 650, GTX330EX, GDL88, GAD43E, PS8000 audio panel, Insight G3 engine monitor, KAP 150 and Alpha System AOA

 

Post photos when done!

[davidsguerra]

photos are on my gallery .  i highly recommend custom avionics in Bartow, Fl.   should pick her up tomorrow!

[mike_elliott]

It is a shame Garmin chooses to be proprietary in their delivery of data. This cannot be good for General Aviation from an innovation and economic basis. This in turn, curtails GA growth, something that is sorely needed. Their posture will preclude that only innovation can come from Garmin if you intend to have Garmin equipment in your plane. How can that be a good thing? Market leader or not, this has not worked well in the past. For example, how many micro channel IBM PCs are being sold today..well for that matter, how many IBM PC's are being sold today? Apple is getting away with it but looking at their forecasts and stock prices, not for long it appears, just like it didn't work out so well in the mid/late 80s for them.

JPI;;;;how did making your data stream proprietary work out for your public image?

 

Maybe Garmin will be the only exception, but Mr. Market has always punished the arrogant in the past, and I see no reason why it wont again.

 

Aspen isn't the company crying "bully" and "unfair", it is the pilots' who want interoperability, and economic substance to their decisions. They don't want to be forced into a "solution" that is captive and costly.

 

YMMV, but Ill take open standards over a proprietary system in a heart beat.

[Marauder]

Garmin is behaving like the gorilla they currently are in this market. They were the same way in the portable consumer GPS market for cars until Tom Tom and Magellan started eating away their business -- not to mention the smartphones! The days of customers buying a StreetPilot 7200 for a grand and paying extra for the map updates are over. As an Aspen owner, I don't like Garmin's position either. But it could be that they feel they have the financial means to outlive their competitors. The problem is that no one is putting a more affordable WAAS GPS out there. And I noticed that Garmin has been aggressively going after the experimental market.

[Hondo]

Mooniac58, I'm impressed with your progress and your take on the situation.  

 

Most of the avionics in my panel are 20+ years old.  

As the AI/HSI/autopilot age, cost, reliability and supportability are becoming an issue. 

Have ordered an Avidyne IFD 440, with possible addition of the Aspen and the Avidyne DFC 90 autopilot, if necessary.

 

Since you are way out in front, I wondered if you would answer a couple of questions.

 

What issues did you encounter and how did you solve them when going all electric?

Do you know if or when Avidyne will certify the DFC 90 for the Mooney?

 

Thanks.

[bumper]

Got in the 201 to fly to the Bay Area yesterday and the Insight Gem 610 was DOA . . . blank screen. No longer supported by Insight, but they do have a trade in, $500 off program. So the question:

 

Fork over the $2.5K + for a G3 - - advantage, basically plug and play.

 

Spend more'n twice that and get a EDM 930 - bigger (but will fit where ADF and Northstar loran are :c( wasting space ), more functions, approved for primary and those little analog gauges are starting to get flaky, will go better with glass panel if I ever get around to doing that.

 

I don't fly the Mooney enough now to truly justify the 930, but saving $ isn't really the object I guess.

 

What to do, . . . what to do??

 

bumper

[Marauder]

Got in the 201 to fly to the Bay Area yesterday and the Insight Gem 610 was DOA . . . blank screen. No longer supported by Insight, but they do have a trade in, $500 off program. So the question:

 

Fork over the $2.5K + for a G3 - - advantage, basically plug and play.

 

Spend more'n twice that and get a EDM 930 - bigger (but will fit where ADF and Northstar loran are :c( wasting space ), more functions, approved for primary and those little analog gauges are starting to get flaky, will go better with glass panel if I ever get around to doing that.

 

I don't fly the Mooney enough now to truly justify the 930, but saving $ isn't really the object I guess.

 

What to do, . . . what to do??

 

bumper

 

Wow! This was me a few months back. I had a 602 that was still working but limited like your 610 with all the extra parameters the newer monitors can display. I looked at the G3 but wondered how readable those values would be in the 2.5" form factor. I then looked at the G4 which is designed to fit in the bigger holes. I ordered one and Insight was offering $1k trade-in which would bring the price down to below $3k. I would be able to save money by reusing my CHT/EGT probes, thus saving install time. The G4 kept getting delayed and I decided to jump to the JPI 830. The box was around $3,400 and was more expensive due to the complete installation that needed to be done.

 

I also looked at the 930 but the box alone was over $5k ($5.5k if I remember correctly).

 

Since I have been flying with the 830, it has been great. Easy to use and for me easy to see everything with electronic gauges and the numerical representation. Brett showed me a video of a friend of his who recently had a G4 installed. I don't think you can go wrong with either the 830 or G4. The 930 would require more commitment and if your analogs are starting to fail, it might make more sense than trying to replace/repair them.

[carusoam]

Remember to check the installation details on the newer G monitors. The unit is shorter than the old monitors and may cause an additional challenge during installation, if you intend to use the existing probes...

Best regards,

-a-

[Bob_Belville]

The 930 is a great box. Getting rid of the old cluster allowed me to get a clean panel. And the data comparisons gives me lots of stuff to work on to run the engine cooler. 

[Marauder]

The 930 is a great box. Getting rid of the old cluster allowed me to get a clean panel. And the data comparisons gives me lots of stuff to work on to run the engine cooler.

Bob -- how big is the 930? Is it deep as well?

[Bob_Belville]

B26, 6" x 5-1/8" x 3" deep

 

https://www.jpinstruments.com/shop/edm-930-primary/

[Bob_Belville]

B26, this shot might better show that the 930 fits in high on the panel where depth is limited...

[Marauder]

Thanks Bob! My factory gauges are working fine but if they become problematic on a regular basis, I may need to step up to the next level. One thing I have learned about these panel upgrades is to plan and then plan more and then when you think you are done, plan some more. I can see why people have their entire panel rebuilt. After a while, it begins looking like Swiss Cheese! If I needed to go the 930 direction, looks like I would need to move it in a similar spot as your's.

[Marauder]

Or can the 930 be used on it's side like the 830?

[Piloto]

Bob, that is the best panel mod I have seen on a classic Mooney, congratulations. Does the 930 has some form of aural alarm to alert you for an out of range indication? Two weeks ago I flew a TLS with the 930 on the right side but it was kind of difficult for me to read the EGT temps due to the text small font, so I mostly relied on the old TIT/CHT gauges on the pilot side. Not familiar with the 930, but can the text font be made bigger? I am planning on replacing my curremt EI EGT/CHT gauge with the 700 EDM gauge on my M20J, no room for the 930.

 

José