Considering a trade "up". Opinions?

[74657]

Guys,

I have had my Missile for a touch over 2 years now and still love/adore my plane but I'm considering the jump into a Malibu or Malibu Mirage. Reasons:

Room - There is no way I will be able to comfortably fly my family long distance once the kids get out of car seats. No leg room for them as my seat is almost all the way back. A cabin class plane will have oodles more space

Pressurized - The thought of flying high without supplemental oxygen is of value to me. Nothing wrong with 11K feet for where I fly but when flying over open water (Lake Michigan) I will have an extra level of safety. I don't like the idea of supplemental O2 for the family.

De-Ice - Not that I am interested in getting myself into trouble, I will get more utility out of the plane especially in the Great Lakes region for our seemingly long icy weather season.

Speed - I'll get more speed at altitude with the turbocharged engine. At this point, I'm not interested in flying any slower than my Missile which for the money I feel is the best bang for the buck plane out there.

Range - I will still be able to fly non-stop 1000 miles and the kids/wife will arrive in better moods when they have more room.

I've ruled out at this point anything w/o pressure and think that P210's are ugly as sin and would never get into one of those after owning a Mooney. I'm not thrilled with the looks of the Malibu in comparison the the Mooney but they do have nice ramp presence.

Thoughts?

Also, How do you guys feel Vref and real world pricing work these days? I was told by one dealer who wanted to buy my Missile that Vref is high and was told by a broker representing Malibus that Vref is stupid low. hahaha. Anyways, I'm thinking that if I can land into something for at or below Vref than I will be happy.

Business is good and interest rates are down. For 200 bucks more a month I can move out of my plane and into a Malibu. Does anyone have any experience with these planes? Any insight or thoughts are appreciated. Even if I sell I'm not leaving this place!

Kind of hard thinking about parting with 888DF when you get shots like this emailed to you:

[fantom]

You know the cost of Malibu Mirage ownership will be 3 or four times as much as your Mooney. This is a lot more than $200/month. Last time I ran the numbers, the total Mirage yearly cost was about $55,000, plus the finance cost delta.

It's a fine palne, and if you can afford it, go for it. I almost did, but it didn't have a porta potty

[FoxMike]

74767,

I guy on the other end of the hangar row sold his TLS several years ago and bought a Malibu. He had to sell his hangar and get a larger one, of course his insurance went up and maintenance bill went through the ceiling. He likes it and can afford it so he is happy.

[74657]

You know the cost of Malibu Mirage ownership will be 3 or four times as much as your Mooney. This is a lot more than $200/month. Last time I ran the numbers, the total Mirage yearly cost was about $55,000, plus the finance cost delta.

It's a fine palne, and if you can afford it, go for it. I almost did, but it didn't have a porta potty

The plane payment would be 200 bucks more. Insurance is about 4K more a year. Fuel will run about the same as my Missile. I'm looking at planes that can be acquired at a price point between 250-300K.

I have the hangar/maintenance deal covered just like I do with 8DF. No worries in that aspect other than the "unknown" maintenance issues the fleet has and the costs associated with the parts. Unfortunately there isn't a good online resource / discussion forum for these planes.

[scottfromiowa]

Just wondering what bank angle you had there <50 feet from the ground? What was circumstances that required the bank angle? What is the definition of buzzing? Was this buzzing? Be safe. Enjoy your turbine.

[scottfromiowa]

BuzzingMomentary lapses in judgment have proven fatal for

many pilots. Buzzing accidents account for many

maneuvering accidents, and are entirely preventable.

During the last ten years, buzzing accidents

accounted for 324 of 2,723, or 11.9 percent, of

maneuvering accidents. At altitudes below 1,000 agl,

no amount of skill will allow recovery from a spin, so

prevention means not engaging in such stunts in the

first place.

[74657]

Just wondering what bank angle you had there <50 feet from the ground? What was circumstances that required the bank angle? What is the definition of buzzing? Was this buzzing? Be safe. Enjoy your turbine.

Mechanic friend was flying. I was with my kids trick-or-treating at the zoo. I wish I could afford a turbine. Hard to stall a plane and put it in a spin @ 130 kts at the end of a 6,000 ft. runway. That being said, you'll never catch me doing that. Stuff happens.

[scottfromiowa]

Nice photo. If my "friend" did this in my plane I would ask him the questions I had above. He wouldn't be flying my plane anymore.

[1964-M20E]

My mechanic used to maintain one as part of her fultime job. Let me know if you want to talk with her on the maintenance side.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Unfortunately there isn't a good online resource / discussion forum for these planes.

MMOPA operates a very good forum for PA46 operations.

http://www.mmopa.com/

You have to join the organization to see most of the content, but if you want to move to a PA46 it is worth the $250 per year to be in MMOPA.

[kris_adams]

I like the picture. If I could justify a pressurized plane with a little larger cabin, I'd be moving up right now. I'd love to hear the results of your analysis.

[Rustler]

If you haven't wandered over to the PoA board, take a look at the discussion here under "Saratoga vs. Mailbu vs. ??".

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53262&highlight=malibu

The interesting thing to me about the piston-engine Mailbu is the 10% engine-out figure. Bruce Chien has some insightful comments.

[ChrisH]

They are basically giving away piston twins, safe over the water, FIKI, pressurized and faster. Course more $'s to operate.

[AndyFromCB]

Here is the problem with all the ones in the 250 to 300k range. All will be pre mid-1986 without the parker hanafin gear. My understanding the gar kenyon system is a pain and unreliable in cold weather. Costs about 13K to overhaul too. Also, having have been a passenger in the Matrix on multiple occasions, once or twice in icing, I would not fly that airplane into ice. The climb rate once you reduce power at 500feet, which you must do in order to keep the cylinders below redline, is about 500fpm on a good day. Put some ice on the wings and it goes down to about half that.

There is a gentleman here on this board that owns a 231 and a malibu. You should talk to him, I forgot his handle though, maybe some others can point you in the right direction.

I'm saving my pennies for the Meridian once I get up to1000hours in a few years.

[M016576]

Mechanic friend was flying. I was with my kids trick-or-treating at the zoo. I wish I could afford a turbine. Hard to stall a plane and put it in a spin @ 130 kts at the end of a 6,000 ft. runway. That being said, you'll never catch me doing that. Stuff happens.

Easy to stall it at high bank angles, no matter your speed.... Just pull back on the yoke more! An accelerated stall can lead to a spin just as easily as a "traditional" stall... Just apply some cross controls and bingo: spin city! Not sure if the mooney would over-G before you crossed the lift limit (ie accel. stall) at 130... I digress...

If you can afford a Malibu, get it: those are nice aircraft! If I ever strike it rich, that or a TBM would be my ride of choice.... Or, while I'm dreaming, a VLJ!

[jetdriven]

BuzzingMomentary lapses in judgment have proven fatal for

many pilots. Buzzing accidents account for many

maneuvering accidents, and are entirely preventable.

During the last ten years, buzzing accidents

accounted for 324 of 2,723, or 11.9 percent, of

maneuvering accidents. At altitudes below 1,000 agl,

no amount of skill will allow recovery from a spin, so

prevention means not engaging in such stunts in the

first place.

I guess I'm going to hell too.... They saved me a supervisor position....

[jetdriven]

Easy to stall it at high bank angles, no matter your speed.... Just pull back on the yoke more! An accelerated stall can lead to a spin just as easily as a "traditional" stall... Just apply some cross controls and bingo: spin city! Not sure if the mooney would over-G before you crossed the lift limit (ie accel. stall) at 130... I digress...

If you can afford a Malibu, get it: those are nice aircraft! If I ever strike it rich, that or a TBM would be my ride of choice.... Or, while I'm dreaming, a VLJ!

It would take 4 G's to stall at that speed. That "bank angle vs. stall speed" chart does not apply here.

[M016576]

It would take 4 G's to stall at that speed. That "bank angle vs. stall speed" chart does not apply here.

There's a bank angle vs stall speed chart? I should get back in the POM....

I figured that the maneuvering speed (lift limit/ load limit intersection) is somewhere close to 130 as its the recommended turbulence/Tstorm penetration speed. 4 g's makes sense- close to the normal category limit definitions. Given enough angle of bank, maintaining a level turn will get you there (although in this picture the pilot is nowhere near that limit). Perfect time to state again... I wish I had an AOA gauge!

[Hank]

Sure there's a Bank Angle vs. Stall Speed chart. Below is the one from my Owner's Manual.

What I don't get is why it does not apply just because the plane is at the edge of ground effect? Of course, 130 knots is well above stall even at 60º, at least in my plane. Of course, that's also approaching cruising speed.

[aviatoreb]

There's a bank angle vs stall speed chart? I should get back in the POM....

I figured that the maneuvering speed (lift limit/ load limit intersection) is somewhere close to 130 as its the recommended turbulence/Tstorm penetration speed. 4 g's makes sense- close to the normal category limit definitions. Given enough angle of bank, maintaining a level turn will get you there (although in this picture the pilot is nowhere near that limit). Perfect time to state again... I wish I had an AOA gauge!

You can get an AOA on your Mooney now. Last spring it was ruled as a minor mod not requiring an STC.

[aviatoreb]

If you haven't wandered over to the PoA board, take a look at the discussion here under "Saratoga vs. Mailbu vs. ??".

http://www.pilotsofa...ighlight=malibu

The interesting thing to me about the piston-engine Mailbu is the 10% engine-out figure. Bruce Chien has some insightful comments.

10%?!!! What the heck. That is a horrific record. Is it the engines, the install in that airframe or the pilots?

[aviatoreb]

They are basically giving away piston twins, safe over the water, FIKI, pressurized and faster. Course more $'s to operate.

Yeah - for about half the money of a malibu you can get a very nice Cessna 340. And with the saved money on hull value you can operate it. Then you have a twin. I bet I would rather have a C340 than a Malibu, but I would rather have a Meridian than a C340 - if anyone of them were in my price range.

[fantom]

I guess I'm going to hell too.... They saved me a supervisor position....

See you there.....

A couple of grand will get you a nice AOA, not that the Mooney in the subject photo needed one for that benign turn.

[M016576]

My AOA gauge upgrade fund got spent on my engine overhaul, unfortunately :-(. I love the idea of that Alpha systems AOA. The concepts described about accelerated stalls just made me think of it. I agree- the picture is nowhere near the AOA (lift) limit at 130. My initial comment was just that it is possible to stall your mooney at 130 kts, given enough back stick (ie, alpha). Notice in Byron's pic that he has about 300fpm VSI: at some point, with enough bank angle you must pull more G than the aircraft can support to retain level flight. That extra G equates to extra alpha, which leads to an accelerated stall. Kind of the reverse of an approach turn stall, but obviously the same concepts apply...

I want the AOA for approaches and landings, though... Not "spirited maneuvering"!

Edit- oh, I'll be waiting downstairs too...

[KSMooniac]

I'd go try to beg a ride in one first, and run some sample W&B calcs for your family situation and hypothetical 1000 nm trip. I've heard the front seats are quite cramped for 6' + folks, but I've never been in one. The dealer/guy that sold my plane bought one and he likes it, but he is usually solo or 2-up for his trips IIRC.

For the price deltas, I'd be looking hard at a well-sorted twin for such a mission.