Mooney Most Bang for Your Buck?

[carusoam]

Jerry,

Please reconsider the insurance portion of your statement. Carry enough insurance to pay for whatever you run into. It's not yours to lay waste to because you don't have the last AMU that it takes to do it right.

Yes, new owners run into things accidentally.... The thing they run into could be 10X the value of your Mooney. It happens faster than you can step on the brakes, pull the throttle, mixture or turn off the key.

Buy insurance first, than go find a matching plane is a better idea.

Not carrying insurance can lead to financial suicide, and not being able to fly for a very long time.

Frugal, or cheap is one thing, suicidal is too extreme.

Don't be financially suicidal.

Probably not what you really meant?

Best regards,

-a-

[thinwing]

good advice here...unfortunately I have to advise that if his numbers are hard...I really cant advise any plane ownership over simply renting....his numbers wont add even for simplest fixed gear ....sorry to be such a downer on your dream,,kpc

[AndyFromCB]

Old adage was if it floats, flies or fornicates, rent it, it's cheaper in the long run. I've broken each and everyone of these rules. I guess I don't like to share, planes, boats or cooties ;-)

[cocolos]

So you guys think it might be better just to rent? I am just trying to figure out what's more economical I am not set on either (renting vs owning). I was 10hrs of flying per month and ideally something I could use to get IFR. Maybe I should try looking at other airplanes?

[hindsight2020]

For comparison my warrior II cost me 30K to acquire. Fly it 220hours a year, 2100SMOH engine on condition with no expectation to overhaul. Routine 420NM mission trip, done enough to rack up such hours. Fuel has been the biggest expense. Insurance 450/yr. Hangar 125/mo. Total for the year is projected at around 15K. If I were to throttle back to the more common <100hr/yr use, total outlay would run around 10K/yr.

My biggest concern would be what comparable maintenance premium operating a C model would have over the profile I just described. Well, for one assume both the annual and insurance doubles. So there's a grand. The rest is a wash because the gas mileage will be the same (all these contraptions hover around 14-16NMPG).

The real question is what's the real deal lurking behind a 30-40K Mooney listing in terms of airframe corrosion, gear mx and leaking fuel tanks. When I look at lesser performing Piper Arrows with more expensive engines to maintain (mechanical fuel injection angle valve cylinder engines are a false economy in my book) and yet commanding a higher price I ask myself whether it's because of something all those Arrow owners don't know or is it something all Mooney C owners know that prospective buyers don't. That gives me pause. Otherwise someone explain to me that disparity in pricing. Given my experience with the PA-28 airframe I'd say the corrosion woes in early mooneys are reflected in that pricing disparity?¿

For sub 300NM trips from a purely utilitarian POV you're better off with a 4 seater fixed prop fixed gear sample to be frank. The one thing I would say you are getting with a 180-200hp retract is the climb rate and the headwind performance. Oh how painful it is to climb my warrior to cruise altitude or to look at the groundspeed with a 10knot headwind. It adds up.

[carusoam]

Renting is full of other challenges.

On the east coast, time is blocked by hours. As soon as I rented my Cessna it was time to go. When my hour was over, I was tied down, handing the keys to the next person. Don't goof up the timing, a few people will be angry. Weather is your fault.

Weekend trips were unavailable. Day trips Only available during the week.

Keep your focus on what you want and how to make it happen... Nobody will be able to tell you what you can or can't do. Unless your married...with kids...and a house....

How's that for the power of positive thinking?

Jim,

Do you think my boss can give me a raise this year? Even with devalued currency the raises have been tiny.

Best regards,

-a-

[AndyFromCB]

For comparison my warrior II cost me 30K to acquire. Fly it 220hours a year, 2100SMOH engine on condition with no expectation to overhaul. Routine 420NM mission trip, done enough to rack up such hours. Fuel has been the biggest expense. Insurance 450/yr. Hangar 125/mo. Total for the year is projected at around 15K. If I were to throttle back to the more common <100hr/yr use, total outlay would run around 10K/yr.

My biggest concern would be what comparable maintenance premium operating a C model would have over the profile I just described. Well, for one assume both the annual and insurance doubles. So there's a grand. The rest is a wash because the gas mileage will be the same (all these contraptions hover around 14-16NMPG).

The real question is what's the real deal lurking behind a 30-40K Mooney listing in terms of airframe corrosion, gear mx and leaking fuel tanks. When I look at lesser performing Piper Arrows with more expensive engines to maintain (mechanical fuel injection angle valve cylinder engines are a false economy in my book) and yet commanding a higher price I ask myself whether it's because of something all those Arrow owners don't know or is it something all Mooney C owners know that prospective buyers don't. That gives me pause. Otherwise someone explain to me that disparity in pricing. Given my experience with the PA-28 airframe I'd say the corrosion woes in early mooneys are reflected in that pricing disparity?¿

For sub 300NM trips from a purely utilitarian POV you're better off with a 4 seater fixed prop fixed gear sample to be frank. The one thing I would say you are getting with a 180-200hp retract is the climb rate and the headwind performance. Oh how painful it is to climb my warrior to cruise altitude or to look at the groundspeed with a 10knot headwind. It adds up.

I'm not quite sure why the Arrows are more expensive. I think there is just more of them out there and they are a bit easier to work on. I would not say cheaper, though. I spent a pretty penny keeping mine in top shape. Also, if you're willing to invest a few bucks, the 1969, 200hp, short wing Arrow will smoke a M20C by about 5knots. Mine had all the Laminar Flow speed mods and it run 145knots at 6000 any day. An E will smoke it any day, though, by about 10knots. The other thing that the Arrow had going for itself was the fact that with VGs it was a great short field aircraft and generally, they are much easier to land than a Mooney for a low time pilot. Being 10knots fast on final didn't mean much. Plus you can rebuild Arrows fuel tanks for about $1500 each vs $4500 in a Mooney. I also think the earlier Arrows offer much better ergonomics than an early Mooney.

As to cocolos, find a partner who wants to fly 60 hours a year too, maybe two partners, then should be able to get there with a $600 a month budget each. Plus they airplane will be much better for it too. If you're still working on your IFR, you might be better off renting until you finish that up. I've been flying since 1999, rented until 2008. It's a different kind of flying when you rent vs owning but still, you're up in the air. You'll never get the cross country experience renting. I really think the key would be finding 2 other like minded individuals to make it happen and make it happen comfortably.

I think another reason why I would stay away from a retractable aircraft would be insurance. It will be about twice as expensive initially until everyone gets their 100 hours of retractable time plus retractable gear is that much more to maintain. Can't really beat a Cessna 172 in that department as Pipers still have their oleo seal issues. I've had them deflate mid-air before on a Cherokee and it makes for an interesting landing.

I don't have a partner currently, but I would have no problems taking one on board as the airplane sits on in the hangar 27 days a month anyway.

[BigTex]

Also, if you're willing to invest a few bucks, the 1969, 200hp, short wing Arrow will smoke a M20C by about 5knots. Mine had all the Laminar Flow speed mods and it run 145knots at 6000 any day.

Really?????

Mooney M-20-C Ranger(prior to 1974) - Performance Data

Horsepower: 180 Gross Weight: 2575 lbs Top Speed: 153 kts Empty Weight: 1525 lbs Cruise Speed: 150 kts Fuel Capacity: 52 gal Stall Speed (dirty): 50 kts Range: 659 nm Takeoff Landing Ground Roll: 815 ft Ground Roll 595 ft Over 50 ft obstacle: 1395 ft Over 50 ft obstacle: 1550 ft Rate Of Climb: 860 fpm Ceiling: 17500 ft

Piper PA-28-200 R & RB Arrow - Performance Data

Horsepower: 200 Gross Weight: 2600 lbs Top Speed: 153 kts Empty Weight: 1459 lbs Cruise Speed: 144 kts Fuel Capacity: 50 gal Stall Speed (dirty): 56 kts Range: 600 nm Takeoff Landing Ground Roll: 770 ft Ground Roll 780 ft Over 50 ft obstacle: 1600 ft Over 50 ft obstacle: 1380 ft Rate Of Climb: 910 fpm Ceiling: 16000 ft

[jetdriven]

To give you an idea of "airplane money", the reinstall bill for the engine alone, with all the FF forward parts required to be new and/or overhauled was close to 30K. Not including the engine. One stupid exhaust part was close to 6K.

Our factory FWF overhaul on a 201 was $35,500 and that was only a 2K shop bill with me (and our third partner) doing 90% of the work. You might have got it done for 25k all in, but thats reusing a lot of parts that will likely result in a midtime problem engine.

[DanM20C]

Really?????

Mooney M-20-C Ranger(prior to 1974) - Performance Data

Horsepower: 180 Gross Weight: 2575 lbs Top Speed: 153 kts Empty Weight: 1525 lbs Cruise Speed: 150 kts Fuel Capacity: 52 gal Stall Speed (dirty): 50 kts Range: 659 nm Takeoff Landing Ground Roll: 815 ft Ground Roll 595 ft Over 50 ft obstacle: 1395 ft Over 50 ft obstacle: 1550 ft Rate Of Climb: 860 fpm Ceiling: 17500 ft

Piper PA-28-200 R & RB Arrow - Performance Data

Horsepower: 200 Gross Weight: 2600 lbs Top Speed: 153 kts Empty Weight: 1459 lbs Cruise Speed: 144 kts Fuel Capacity: 50 gal Stall Speed (dirty): 56 kts Range: 600 nm Takeoff Landing Ground Roll: 770 ft Ground Roll 780 ft Over 50 ft obstacle: 1600 ft Over 50 ft obstacle: 1380 ft Rate Of Climb: 910 fpm Ceiling: 16000 ft

I'm going to have to agree with Big Tex on this one. I have about 50hrs in 3 different '69 200hp arrows. It all three I could only get 135kts tas (on a good day) with similar fuel burns to my C. My C is also a '69 and I have no speed mods. After 300hrs of keeping close track of my numbers, I average 141kts on 8.9gph. I'm sure if I wanted to dump 10k into speed mods I could be in the 150kt range on the same fuel burn. That 10k + my purchase price is still below the average arrow price and mine came with a 530W and autopilot with alt hold. I think a C is the best bang for the buck in retracts when on a tight budget. The sweet spot is a 201, but a similarly equipped 201 would have cost me double what I have in my C.

Cocolos, there is some good advice here. Probably the most sound, however, is you should continue renting. If you are flying 10hrs per month owning sounds like it would be cost effective. Usually it is, but if anything major happens or is found during an annual (likely with a 30k Mooney). The cost can sky rocket. A partnership might work out, but that is a very personal thing. I can't share anything so I would never consider a partnership. But it works for some.

So I would advice not to buy with your current financial situation. But what do I know. I bought my first airplane when I was 21 and practically didn’t have a nickel to my name. The bank was willing to give me the money so I pulled the trigger. It was probably the worst financial decision I have ever made. But I have never regretted it, I still have that plane. I was smarter with the Mooney and kept the banks out of it.

Dan

[stevesm20b]

I agree the "C" model is the best bang for the buck. All else being equal, avionics, engine times, overall condishion. The C will cost less to aquire (less than half of a 201), and is cheaper to maintain.

[AndyFromCB]

I'm going to have to agree with Big Tex on this one. I have about 50hrs in 3 different '69 200hp arrows. It all three I could only get 135kts tas (on a good day) with similar fuel burns to my C. My C is also a '69 and I have no speed mods. After 300hrs of keeping close track of my numbers, I average 141kts on 8.9gph. I'm sure if I wanted to dump 10k into speed mods I could be in the 150kt range on the same fuel burn. That 10k + my purchase price is still below the average arrow price and mine came with a 530W and autopilot with alt hold. I think a C is the best bang for the buck in retracts when on a tight budget. The sweet spot is a 201, but a similarly equipped 201 would have cost me double what I have in my C.

Cocolos, there is some good advice here. Probably the most sound, however, is you should continue renting. If you are flying 10hrs per month owning sounds like it would be cost effective. Usually it is, but if anything major happens or is found during an annual (likely with a 30k Mooney). The cost can sky rocket. A partnership might work out, but that is a very personal thing. I can't share anything so I would never consider a partnership. But it works for some.

So I would advice not to buy with your current financial situation. But what do I know. I bought my first airplane when I was 21 and practically didn’t have a nickel to my name. The bank was willing to give me the money so I pulled the trigger. It was probably the worst financial decision I have ever made. But I have never regretted it, I still have that plane. I was smarter with the Mooney and kept the banks out of it.

Dan

An unmodified Arrow is a 135knot cruiser but just like LoPresti managed to get extra 10 to 15 knots going from F to a J, a modified Arrow is quite a different airplane. Same can be said about a Lance. The LFS Lance has won quite a few races in the 1980's and 1990's running against bonanzas. My Arrow would cruise at 145 on about 10gph any day, and close in on 148 on perfect days. Quite a few 4 way runs verified the 145 figure. I had dumped about $7K into mods to make it go that fast. Another $25K would get an Arrow into an unmodified J like speeds. That required the 2 bladed scimitar propeller and the LoPresti cowling. But that's a lot of money for another 10knots. Would have probably kept going but just got bored with a lack of turbo and deicing.

[AndyFromCB]

Our factory FWF overhaul on a 201 was $35,500 and that was only a 2K shop bill with me (and our third partner) doing 90% of the work. You might have got it done for 25k all in, but thats reusing a lot of parts that will likely result in a midtime problem engine.

Byron,

No, I meant my removal and reinstall bill was 30K alone. Not counting the engine overhaul.

The exhaust overhaul was $4K, new exhaust transition was $6K, new set of exhaust clamps was $3K (the turbo clamp is 1K alone), mounts $2K, new set of probes, $1.5K plus about 100 hours of labor. As to the engine, the overhaul was 33K, all new parts other than case, crank and connecting rods, all still standard size. Kept the jugs, as they only had 1100 hours on them, but installed new valves, valve guides, springs, rockers, pistons, pins, etc to a tune of $1200 a jug. Didn't really need to that as the jugs actually look brand new. Kept the turbo and controllers as they only had 1100 hours on them as well. It would have been another $5K for turbo and controllers. Really the engine just needed a new camshaft, followers and oil pump but with a giant removal and reinstall bill, might as well get it done right.

All and all, before all what said and done, and before while we in there, why not, the total bill was $68K.

[DaV8or]

dang this thread is depressing -

No kidding. It's unbelievable and at times, hard to understand, but owning an airplane is really the domain of the 5%ers and up. I really, really hate to say that, but it's kind of true. There are of course exceptions, but by and large, you have to be doing alright to successfully own an airplane long term. You really need to have the ability to piss away tens of thousands of dollars every year comfortably. Some folks are lucky enough to write a plane off as a business expense, or get a business to pay for it, but most of us can't. Having two incomes in the household really helps.

I hate to say it, but I too am pissing away over $10,000 a year to keep a plane all of my own. I love the experience so far and will keep doing so as long as I can, but it's crazy.

Having said all that, there are ways to achieve ownership on a budget. Outside of marrying up, winning the lotto, or inheritance, it usually involves partnerships, lower performance airplanes, sweat equity and often experimental status. A plane of your own can happen to the average guy, but sadly, not as often as I'd like to see. It's almost like, it you have to ask, you need to keep renting... but there are ways to achieve the dream, but sometimes it's stepping stones and sometimes it's not the vision you once envisioned.

To the OP-

You may, or may not be able to achieve Mooney ownership and I mean that in the manner of year after year ownership, not just, I got it until the first $7,000 gotcha, or $15,000 gotcha! The ramps of America are littered with these broken dreams. Look hard at the numbers and explore all the options, not just Mooney options. Don't screw yourself or your family. If the numbers work out, go for it!! If done properly, you won't regret it.

[cocolos]

No kidding. It's unbelievable and at times, hard to understand, but owning an airplane is really the domain of the 5%ers and up. I really, really hate to say that, but it's kind of true. There are of course exceptions, but by and large, you have to be doing alright to successfully own an airplane long term. You really need to have the ability to piss away tens of thousands of dollars every year comfortably. Some folks are lucky enough to write a plane off as a business expense, or get a business to pay for it, but most of us can't. Having two incomes in the household really helps.

I hate to say it, but I too am pissing away over $10,000 a year to keep a plane all of my own. I love the experience so far and will keep doing so as long as I can, but it's crazy.

Having said all that, there are ways to achieve ownership on a budget. Outside of marrying up, winning the lotto, or inheritance, it usually involves partnerships, lower performance airplanes, sweat equity and often experimental status. A plane of your own can happen to the average guy, but sadly, not as often as I'd like to see. It's almost like, it you have to ask, you need to keep renting... but there are ways to achieve the dream, but sometimes it's stepping stones and sometimes it's not the vision you once envisioned.

To the OP-

You may, or may not be able to achieve Mooney ownership and I mean that in the manner of year after year ownership, not just, I got it until the first $7,000 gotcha, or $15,000 gotcha! The ramps of America are littered with these broken dreams. Look hard at the numbers and explore all the options, not just Mooney options. Don't screw yourself or your family. If the numbers work out, go for it!! If done properly, you won't regret it.

I might go for a C150 or a piper Cherokee I am trying to crunch the numbers. I'd do it in a partnership but I still want some good numbers.

[DaV8or]

I might go for a C150 or a piper Cherokee I am trying to crunch the numbers. I'd do it in a partnership but I still want some good numbers.

Both planes are good options, however, if you go with the Cherokee, your eventual transition to a Mooney will be a little easier. I'm just sayin'. I really do hope you achieve ownership in some sort of plane, with of course Mooney being the best outcome! Ownership is truely rewarding as long as it doesn't bankrupt you, or destroy relationships.

[carusoam]

Dave said,

Having said all that, there are ways to achieve ownership on a budget. Outside of marrying up, winning the lotto, or inheritance, it usually involves partnerships, lower performance airplanes, sweat equity and often experimental status. A plane of your own can happen to the average guy, but sadly, not as often as I'd like to see. It's almost like, it you have to ask, you need to keep renting... but there are ways to achieve the dream, but sometimes it's stepping stones and sometimes it's not the vision you once envisioned.

My thoughts exactly...

And over time it might work out better than you once envisioned...

Be ready when it happens.

Plan to minimize your risk.

Best regards,

-a-

[healthfx]

Flying a plane and buying one are two totally different things. A plane owner has to be able to effectively budget for maintenance.

Penny pinching makes flying dangerous. I fly a '62 M20C - about 100 hours per year. Including my hangar costs, I budget $15k per year for costs.

If you buy a C model, you must look at tanks, landing gear, exhaust, avionics and corrosion. That's just the start. Most of teh engined based on time are out of TBO...Switches are important too, cause age can cause them to fail...My master switch failed over San Diego while flying my family to Mexico. I lost all electricity.

If you are serious about buying a Mooney, you need this guide:

http://www.mooneyland.com/the-complete-mooney-knowledge-pack/

[danb35]

If you are serious about buying a Mooney, you need this guide:

http://www.mooneylan...knowledge-pack/

It will be difficult to get that guide, since its creator/publisher is dead. Fortunately, however, there are many other excellent sources of information, including this web site, MAPA, the mooney and mooney-tech e-mail lists, and others.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Both planes are good options, however, if you go with the Cherokee, your eventual transition to a Mooney will be a little easier. I'm just sayin'.

The transition is not that big a deal. I'd personally fly Cessna. It's better for the grass strips and I *personally* feel that Cessna has a higher quality product, in general.

[Hank]

Go for an M20-C, and find/read George Perry's excellent post from 2-3 years ago about shopping for a Vintage Mooney.

[DaV8or]

I *personally* feel that Cessna has a higher quality product, in general.

You know, I've heard that opinion for years and I have no idea what the basis for this asessment could be. I flew both brands for years and could tell very little in "quality" differences, well, except that Cessna has baggage and door latches that like to pop open in flight. Of course, none of the planes I was flying were brand new. I'm sure the transition from the Cessna is probably no big deal, but I still contend that the Cherokee just makes it that much easier.

[BigTex]

Granted I've done most of my flying in a Piper (outside of my aerobatic/Decathlon phase) I could be biased... I found the transitioned from a Cherokee 180 to my M20C a very easy transition. It has the same engine and ground effect on landing is closer to the Mooney than a 172 or 152.

[Super Dave]

I might go for a C150 or a piper Cherokee I am trying to crunch the numbers. I'd do it in a partnership but I still want some good numbers.

I share a well equipped 76 F model with two other owners and could not be happier with the partnership. We each pay $50/month and $15/flight hour. This more or less covers hanger, insurance, database subscription, and annual/100hr inspections.

These numbers are probably on the low end for such a partnership, but we run little to no reserve, so repairs and improvements are almost entirely out of pocket. Also, we do as much owner assisted maintenance as is possible. Insurance rates are favorable, as we are all professional pilots. One of the owners is particularly maintenance savvy and good at finding ways to keep repair costs down. While the other is business minded, which is helpful in finding the lowest rates and negotiating good relationships with FBO/Mx.

All partners are like minded in how the airplane should be operated and maintained. Scheduling is rarely an issue, and when it is, we've agreed that whoever is planing the biggest trip wins out.

My point with all of this is that if you do get into a partnership, I think that finding the right partnership is actually more important than finding the right airplane. In my case, I would have entered this partnership whether it was an Arrow, Cardinal, or SR20 (although I'm awfully happy it's a mooney).

[rbridges]

I agree the "C" model is the best bang for the buck. All else being equal, avionics, engine times, overall condishion. The C will cost less to aquire (less than half of a 201), and is cheaper to maintain.

I agree. All the cool pilots own M20Cs.