Looking at Buying Unairworthy M20J for $45k

[Ted_G]

Greetings All,

New member here. I have seen that there is a wealth of knowledge on this forum and so I wanted to finally tap in. My aviation experience is CFI with 475TT and over 100 hours in Piper Arrows (Mooney>Arrow).

Anyways, I am looking at buying a 1977 M20J that is currently unairworthy for $45k. The price is negotiable. The aircraft is located in West Virginia. I am located out of Maryland and have actually seen the airplane in person. It hasn't flown since 2011 but the current owner started to do a lot to get it airworthy again before he lost the A&P that he was working with. The current owner replaced the tubes, tires, brakes, and rotors. He also swung the gear, checked the fuel tanks, replaced the prop, checked compressions, inspected the cam-shaft, and replaced the fuel caps.

The airplane has 2650TT and less than 500 hrs SMOH on the engine. Brand new prop. The paint is rough but maybe I could get it slightly touched up or power washed without having to go through an entire repainting process. I don't care if the paint is faded just don't want the evil black mold look on it. There is visible corrosion on the landing gear.

I looked on the main Mooney website and saw a few authorized Mooney shops within the MD/PA/VA areas. I was looking at Freeway Aviation in Bowie, Maryland. The current owner said the aircraft would probably have to be shipped to get it airworthy. So have to take the wings off and put on a truck. I'm not a super big fan of taking the wings off because I know that can lead to problems if they aren't properly disassembled and/or put back together.

Anyways, I guess I was wondering depending on what the A&P saw what type of money are we probably talking to get this plane airworthy? 30k? 40k? 50k? I guess I am wondering if it is worth the money to try to get it airworthy since most J's go for over 100k. 

Here is the Trade-A-Plane link:

1977 MOONEY M20J 201 Single Engine Piston for sale - 2418992

Thanks!

[MikeOH]

Short answer: NO!

Long answer: HELL NO!

Sorry, but if you've never owned and are NOT an A&P this will be a huge mistake.

Off the top of my head:

1) How did the owner "inspect the cam" on a Lycoming?  (HINT: you have to split the case!)

2) He replaced the fuel caps.  So, how much water got in the tanks, and for how long while it sat outside?

3) Why was the prop replaced?  Prop strike? If so, then you need an engine tear down.

4) Did you glance at that panel???  KX-170s and what looks to be a first-gen DME.

If you pay to have this done you are going to spend more than finding a nice J that is ready to fly.

The TIME this will take is likely to be measured in years.

All, IMHO, of course.  Be very careful of advice to take this one on as a project...just sayin'

[Hank]

While it is possible to remove a Mooney wing, it comes off all in one piece, not two separate wing sections like a Piper. That means the landing gear linkages have to be disassembled, fuel lines disconnected, control linkages to flaps and ailerons disconnected, pitot static lines unplugged, etc.

The preferred way to truck a Mooney is to drill out the rivets in the fuselage behind the baggage door, and disconnect the tail push rods (2) and trim jackscrew (1). The front section goes on the trailer with the wing lengthwise, and the tail section sits beside it with the horizontal stabilizer lengthwise too. A good MSC can do this, in your area check with Weber in PA, or call Maxwell in Texas.

But for your first plane, this will be quite a leap, and flying may wait a year or more while you fix things up and put the plane back together. It will fly with the outdated panel, but upgrading that will not be inexpensive. 

[McMooney]

I'd say NO.....

 

but if the plane somehow didn't have life ending corrosion,  expecting you'll need at LEAST 100k to bring it up to todays standards, (eng, avionics, paint )

would it be in range of existing J's?  

 

I'd bet she's done for but you never know

   

[IvanP]

If you like flying - find a plane that is airworthy and buy it. It will probably take more than $45k, though, ifyou want a Mooney.

If money is no object and you want to buy it to work on this project and pour money into it for next few years - go for it. My guess is that by the time the plane will fly, the total amount spent will be far in excess of what you would spend today on a working plane. 

 

[Jsno]

Pass on it.  I bought an estate sale Mooney and wound up spending over 60K on it.  I have an IA so the labor was free.  It’s the small stuff that will nickel and dime you to end up eventually amounting to big bucks.  The cheapest aircraft is one that is currently flying and well maintained.

[ArtVandelay]

For the prebuy I would have the entire plane inspected for corrosion, that means pulling every inspection panel and interior and emptying the fuel tanks. I would not be surprised if you spend well over $10k just on the prebuy inspection and transporting it back to your home airport.

Paint jobs are $25k, new avionics $85-$100k, engine overhaul $35k unless a new crankshaft is required, $50k.

[Aaviationist]

5 hours ago, MikeOH said:

1) How did the owner "inspect the cam" on a Lycoming?  (HINT: you have to split the case!)

Wrong. 

[Aaviationist]

6 hours ago, Ted_G said:

 

Here is the Trade-A-Plane link:

1977 MOONEY M20J 201 Single Engine Piston for sale - 2418992

Thanks!

That thing is toast. Stay away from it. There MIGHT be some good parts on it. 

[67 m20F chump]

If you were given that airplane you could not economically take that on and make it airworthy.  What do you think the tubular roll cage looks like?  That plane is a part out.  It has some value as a part out but I don’t think it’s 45k.  My guess is the owner did the interior and knows how rusted the plane is.  Also an engine sitting 14 years in the mid-Atlantic area but has no corrosion on  the cam even though it wasn’t stored properly.  Doesn’t pass the sniff test.  I have a bridge to sell you too.

[N201MKTurbo]

If you were an A&P and had hangar space, I would consider it. 

Read the post about the $42000 annual that left the plane unairworthy. 

The easiest way to move the airplane is to ferry it. If you can get the engine to run and verify the flight controls won’t fall apart, you should be able to get a ferry permit.

[Yetti]

They could have at least washed it.    Anyways if you have an extra $100K after you purchase you might have a reliable flyer.   The way it has rusted suggests salt air.   It may be beer can time for it. 

[Schllc]

10 hours ago, McMooney said:

I'd say NO.....

 

but if the plane somehow didn't have life ending corrosion,  expecting you'll need at LEAST 100k to bring it up to todays standards, (eng, avionics, paint )

would it be in range of existing J's?  

 

I'd bet she's done for but you never know

   

100k is wishful thinking.  paint alone will be 30k+.  the have to's are bad enough, when the "while we are there's"  it will go to 200 in the blink of an eye.

[varlajo]

I don't think this plane will fly again

[Paul Thomas]

I think it's been on the market for almost a year; I thought it had sold. As much as it pains me to say, I think the value in this one is a part out.

[Fritz1]

all very candid remarks, value of the plane is salvage, unless you are retired and an A&P IA and have done this kind of project before stay away and find an airplane that is ready to go

[Greg Ellis]

2 minutes ago, Paul Thomas said:

I think it's been on the market for almost a year; I thought it had sold. As much as it pains me to say, I think the value in this one is a part out.

I think I agree.  I just do not see a price that this thing will sell as one piece.  But, it does seem to have some possible parts that would fetch some money.  For instance, the whole control yoke complex for someone with an older model wanting to upgrade to newer style yokes.  The interior seems to be in okay condition even though it looks like the carpet is missing.  The prop may still be okay (0 time but sitting outside for a long time) etc, etc....

[Stubby]

I bought my first Mooney 2 years ago, and went over my "airplane budget" to do so. I looked at a lot of cheaper planes that needed a little TLC and almost pulled the trigger on a couple. Ultimately, I'm incredibly happy that I ended up spending a little more on the initial purchase to get something that was "turn key". I'm two uneventful annuals in and very few little/unexpected fixes in between. I read ALL the forums on here while shopping and ultimately decided on the "buy your forever plane first" route and I can't imagine doing it any other way now. 

[EricJ]

This one might be a project for a very bored A&P that just wants to take a risk on it, but it'll need radios/etc., plus all of the hidden stuff, plus the risk on the engine, etc., etc.   $80k-$100k for the panel work alone, plus everything else.   There is unlikely to be much value there if you started with it for free.

For less than the money and time that would need to be put into this one a very nice currently flying airplane could be had.

[varlajo]

Agree with @EricJ. You are looking at an enormous spend. You will be much better off spending 100K on an actively flying, well maintained plane with decent avionics instead of pumping at least that much, likely much more, into your $45K purchase and still facing all the hidden gremlins, some of which may permanently ground the plane faster than you can say "annual".

[Igor_U]

Years ago my friend's daughter got the sailboat and received $100 to take it of sellers hands. 

This plane is in the same category except seller would need to offer much more then a c-note. And you would still be better off buying a nice M20J.

[Pinecone]

While I agree, in general, things could be better than expected.

A local A&P/IA got a F model that was last in annual in 1997.  It was painted, parked in a hangar and left.  He got it for a couple of months hangar rent.  He knows Mooneys somewhat.  He pulled the interior and inspection panels and did a deep dive into the internals for corrosion.  There is some surface corrosion on the steel tubes, with within limits.  No spar corrosion.

Engine borescope showed a small (quarter sized) patch of rust in each cylinder. But not deep.

Things were good enough that he pulled two cylinders to inspect that cam.  And it is fine.  And this is also a Mid-Atlantic plane, but closer to the water.

It still has a few niggling things but looks like it will be a nice plane for someone.

@jetdriven is closer to the plane (KGAI) and a very good Mooney mechanic.  He owns and flies an early J also.

[Rwsavory]

There is no way you can economically resurrect that plane. It would be a challenge even if you did all the work yourself. Buy a plane that you can fly today. 

[TangoTango]

It makes me sad to see a Mooney parted out... but I personally would never take on a project like that.

Maybe someday there will be enough value to rebuild Mooneys from a dataplate and a logbook like the tube and fabric guys do. I've seen them bring pre-war basket cases to like-new condition. Unfortunately for Mooneys, the fleet needs parts bad enough that the salvage value threshold is pretty high.

Of course things could always be better than they appear like Pinecone says... but I wouldn't want to bet on that without a very close preexisting relationship with a local A&P/IA.

[A64Pilot]

I can’t imagine how anyone could pass judgement on something sight unseen.

You can inspect a cam for corrosion by pulling a couple of jugs, but even then you can’t be sure

My advice is take a competent A&P out to inspect it, you would have to to get a ferry permit anyway.

It could be the deal of the Century (unlikely) or it could be a piece of junk (also unlikely in my opinion)

Corrosion is what kills airplanes, gear rust is very common and easily dealt with, interior spar and fuselage tubing corrosion, not so much.

I’d bet it’s something in between, however it’s very likely to get overly expensive if the plan is to drop it off at a well known and therefore expensive shop, you need an A&P / IA that will “work with you” that is you work under their supervision to the extent of your ability, and you need a good hangar with electricity etc.

In short a good bit of sweat equity, assuming the A&P finds it worth doing.

‘In a couple of hours I can get enough of a look to know if it’s got severe corrosion and I’m not a particularly special A&P/IA.