Logbook Page Removed and not Disclosed - Criminal Misrepresentation?

[Bolter]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

Not an A&P, so maybe one here can explain the different ways it is possible to bend a pushrod on a Lycoming.

Short of a badly stuck valve: cam pushes on lifter, pushes on pushrod, pushes on rocker, pushes on STUCK valve that doesn't move...pushrod is weakest link and bends, I don't see how it can happen.

Hydraulic lifters are designed to take up ALL clearance in a running engine, so even if the pushrod is so long as to bottom out the lifter to the point the valve is on the ragged edge of opening (if the valve was actually held open the engine would barely/not run) I don't see how the pushrod can get bent. IOW, even in that scenario I don't see how the valve is going to hit the piston, or fully collapse the valve spring to where it binds.

Maybe the question is: are valves fully open when the piston is at TDC, and what is the clearance between the two, if so.  A too long pushrod would need to open the valve past that clearance.  Then, we are back to how did the engine run for a minute, let alone 700-800 hours???

What about a lubrication issue?  What gets the oil to heads, and is it flowing properly or blocked?  Is it a common feed to all the heads, or each has its own feed?  If the hydraulic push rod is in constant contact with the valve, and there is not the right amount of oil getting there, it become metal on metal instead of the proper oil film.  Similar to what happens with the cams from dry starts.  Or possibly if the CHT's are too high, the oil may be burning off instead of lubricating.  Though that would leave coking indications, I think.  

Just thoughts on a different direction that creates wear at that interface.  The push rod has equal force on the cam as the valve, but only one end is wearinng.  The cam is constantly rotating, and the valve is pulsing, so the motion and contact patch area are different, even if the forces are the same.  

-dan

[Utah20Gflyer]

Wow, this is quite the situation.

rockers arms are damaged ?

pushrods are all bent?

pushrods that came out won’t go back in?

you are being told the case has been milled beyond limits but the accessory case still fits?

but the engine ran like that for 800 hours?

I would say the next step is certainly a second opinion.  No knock on the current mechanic but the confusion seems to be multiplying.  I think an engine shop like you are talking about is a great idea.  
 

[ragedracer1977]

I just can’t comprehend how anything fit in the crankcase if it’s over milled by 30-40 thousandths.  How did the bearings install? How did the accessory case install? How did the sump pan line up?  
 

 

[OR75]

I had to go back to the initial post ... so the compressions were good but they decided to change the rockers ?

[M20GforMe]

1 minute ago, OR75 said:

I had to go back to the initial post ... so the compressions were good but they decided to change the rockers ?

Yup. They did tell me there was some marring on them and recommended that they get replaced so I had given them the thumbs up, not having known any better at the time…

[N201MKTurbo]

I remember about 25 years ago I had a rocker with a chip on its face. I took it to the local engine shop to get a new one. I showed it to the owner of the shop and he said “you don’t need a new one” then took it to his grinder and ground the face down till the chip was gone. He handed it back and said “here ya go” I put it back in the engine and it never gave me any trouble.

[M20GforMe]

Updating this thread - I got some second opinions from various sources including Savvy, and it was determined the crank case was out of tolerance. I decided to go with Watson Aero due to their lead time and apparent quality. James Watson of Watson Aero is one of the account managers at Savvy as well, so I felt comfortable using him and his shop.

Coletti crated the engine and sent it off to James, but then they hit me with a $42K Invoice for work done up until now. This is in addition to the $16k I had already paid as a downpayment (which is Invoice 1302, attached). This does not include the install of the engine when it returns from Watson Aero.

This is way in excess of the estimate that was initially given, and many of the charges were not cleared with me, so I'm a bit sour about this. 

My main question is if certain charges on the new invoice 1384 are reasonable or out of line. I have not yet paid this. I sent to savvy and they said the way the costs are split between the invoices is very confusing (65% down, 35% balance). They did say its correct and I have to pay it though. I didnt feel as if they did due diligence.

Main Lines of Concern

Line 14 - Engine Valvetrain excessively worn - $6,075.00

Line 18 - Aircrafts Data Plate is in the wrong Location - $59.06 (Its where its supposed to be...)

Line 37 - Nose Puck is cracked - $5,049.00 (37.4 Hours of Labor!?) Not including pucks..

Line 47 - AD Compliance - $1,620.00 (AD Compliance Sheet was included with Logs)

Can anyone share their opinions and knowlege on whether these seem reasonable or totally out of line?

 

Invoice_1384_from_Coletti_Aviation_LLC Scrubbed.pdf Invoice_1302_from_Coletti_Aviation_LLC Scrubbed.pdf

[EricJ]

12 minutes ago, M20GforMe said:

Updating this thread - I got some second opinions from various sources including Savvy, and it was determined the crank case was out of tolerance. I decided to go with Watson Aero due to their lead time and apparent quality. James Watson of Watson Aero is one of the account managers at Savvy as well, so I felt comfortable using him and his shop.

Coletti crated the engine and sent it off to James, but then they hit me with a $42K Invoice for work done up until now. This is in addition to the $16k I had already paid as a downpayment (which is Invoice 1302, attached). This does not include the install of the engine when it returns from Watson Aero.

This is way in excess of the estimate that was initially given, and many of the charges were not cleared with me, so I'm a bit sour about this. 

My main question is if certain charges on the new invoice 1384 are reasonable or out of line. I have not yet paid this. I sent to savvy and they said the way the costs are split between the invoices is very confusing (65% down, 35% balance). They did say its correct and I have to pay it though. I didnt feel as if they did due diligence.

Main Lines of Concern

Line 14 - Engine Valvetrain excessively worn - $6,075.00

Line 18 - Aircrafts Data Plate is in the wrong Location - $59.06 (Its where its supposed to be...)

Line 37 - Nose Puck is cracked - $5,049.00 (37.4 Hours of Labor!?) Not including pucks..

Line 47 - AD Compliance - $1,620.00 (AD Compliance Sheet was included with Logs)

Can anyone share their opinions and knowlege on whether these seem reasonable or totally out of line?

 

Invoice_1384_from_Coletti_Aviation_LLC Scrubbed.pdf 63.99 kB · 0 downloads Invoice_1302_from_Coletti_Aviation_LLC Scrubbed.pdf 59.92 kB · 0 downloads

Ouch.   Whatever happens, after this find a different shop.   Sorry you have to go through this.

My fave:

Discrepancy: Oil dipstick tube is loose and
the gasket is missing pieces.
Corrective Action: Remove the dipstick,
replace the gasket and reinstall the
dipstick.
0.65 $1,355.00 $880.75

[N201MKTurbo]

Damn, that’s more than I sold my Cessna for. Which included a fresh annual.

[Schllc]

2 hours ago, M20GforMe said:

Can anyone share their opinions and knowlege on whether these seem reasonable or totally out of line?

The longer you fight it the more it will eat at you.  It sucks and I doubt many of us would feel any less frustration or anger. But you’re almost done with them and have a significant upgrade. And you don’t ever have to go back. 
Hang the engine, put some distance from that shop you, then find a good guy. They are out there. 
Really sorry this happened to you .

[Aaviationist]

They didn’t just replace the nose puck, they replaced all the pucks AND it sounds like the front gear assembly. I’d bet they have every bit of that time invested to do that. 
 

to be honest, the hours seem high, but not astronomical. 
 

If this was a vintage C/E/F/G, it probably should have gone to the parts bin. You’re going to be into this a completely additional airplane by the time you’re done with overhaul. 

Edited August 14 by Aaviationist

[MikeOH]

4 hours ago, EricJ said:

Ouch.   Whatever happens, after this find a different shop.   Sorry you have to go through this.

My fave:

Discrepancy: Oil dipstick tube is loose and
the gasket is missing pieces.
Corrective Action: Remove the dipstick,
replace the gasket and reinstall the
dipstick.
0.65 $1,355.00 $880.75

I think that one he can "win" as it's an obvious typo on their $135 hourly shop rate:

 

[Jackk]

Late to the topic but a few things come to mind 

 

1 As you have seen no prebuy is a major roll of the dice, shy of a killer deal it’s generally a bad idea 

2 being hands off maintenance and drop it off and “call me when it’s ready” is a VERY expensive proposition for a aircraft owner, if you ain’t into turning wrenches best bet is just join a club, unless money is near a no factor for you, and even then…

3 a missing log page, who knows, bad annual, or maybe he dropped a BBQ rib on the page, you’ll probably never know 

[EricJ]

10 hours ago, MikeOH said:

I think that one he can "win" as it's an obvious typo on their $135 hourly shop rate:

 

Yes, it was still amusing, though, and a bit emblematic, I thought.

[Yetti]

13 hours ago, MikeOH said:

I think that one he can "win" as it's an obvious typo on their $135 hourly shop rate:

 

There are three alternator brackets.   They can be installed 180 degrees out of alignment.   For this one, look in the Lycoming manual verify part number and possibly remove two bolts and flip it around.   Flipping it around is most likely the resolution. It takes about 30 minutes to fix the oil tube with the engine on the plane.   An O ring from the parts bin and some safety wire will get you going.

[Nico1]

37 hours labor for nose pucks is crazy. Even completely removing and rebuilding NLG won’t even get you close to that. 

[Hank]

45 minutes ago, Nico1 said:

37 hours labor for nose pucks is crazy. Even completely removing and rebuilding NLG won’t even get you close to that. 

3.7 hours may be realistic for someone who has never done it before. 

They must have misplaced this decimal just like on the hourly rate for dipstick work.

[MikeOH]

4 hours ago, Yetti said:

There are three alternator brackets.   They can be installed 180 degrees out of alignment.   For this one, look in the Lycoming manual verify part number and possibly remove two bolts and flip it around.   Flipping it around is most likely the resolution. It takes about 30 minutes to fix the oil tube with the engine on the plane.   An O ring from the parts bin and some safety wire will get you going.

You missed my point completely!

 I highlighted the hourly rate on the alternator item only to point out the $1355/hour rate on the dipstick was wrong! Hence the .65 hour time is ok, just the total amount should be corrected for the dipstick.

[Aaviationist]

4 hours ago, Hank said:

3.7 hours may be realistic for someone who has never done it before. 

They must have misplaced this decimal just like on the hourly rate for dipstick work.

The way I read it, they replaced all of them and nose gear assembly. 

[Paul Thomas]

On 8/13/2025 at 6:22 PM, M20GforMe said:

This is way in excess of the estimate that was initially given, and many of the charges were not cleared with me, so I'm a bit sour about this. [...][Savvy][...] did say it's correct and I have to pay it though.

 

What was the estimate you were given? Did they do work that was not approved? If so, other issues aside, I don't know that I'd let them remain in possession of the airplane for fear it may continue. You are not a blank check; I thought issues over scope of work were resolved after the first bill.

I thought the whole point of Savvy was to manage things for you so that you didn't end up with unexpected bills or uneccessary work. What have they done for you? You're at $58k, add in the engine work and re-install you and going to be at $100k. Ouch!

[Jackk]

The rates seem normal for a drop it off and call me when it’s ready type deal 

[kortopates]

…….
I thought the whole point of Savvy was to manage things for you so that you didn't end up with unexpected bills or uneccessary work. What have they done for you? You're at $58k, add in the engine work and re-install you and going to be at $100k. Ouch!

Savvy didn’t manage this. If you read this from the beginning you’ll see he didn’t contact Savvy until well after the OP authorized work. He contacted us for help after advice from people here on this thread plus we only manage maintenance with shops that agree to our processes and terms. So the OP did end up using us as a consultant to help him with the shop but it was well past our ability prevent what had already happened- nor are we lawyers that try to intervene after the fact.
But you can ask the OP if he’s seeing value by contracting with us.


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