Lycoming IO 360-A3B6D Overhaul/Extra Core?

[dwanzor]

As I mentioned in another topic, I am looking at buying a J model Mooney that has the original 1979 engine in it, past TBO. 

I have called all the usual suspects and gotten overhaul pricing, but the turnaround times are painful. I have some questions: 

1. Does anyone have a lead on a freshly overhauled A3B6D from a reputable overhaul shop? 

2. Does anyone have a lead on an engine core that has been pulled that I might be able to buy and overhaul (perhaps someone that upgraded to the A3B6)? 

3. What is an engine core worth (subjective, I know, but any recent data points of one for sale or advertised price)? I have come across one advertised at $17k, which seems high. 

4. If I was able to track down a different engine, overhaul it, then swap it into my plane, is there much of a market if I decided to go ahead and overhaul the 2nd engine and try to sell it? I would probably need to get $60k for it to cover cost for core, overhaul cost, plus a bit of profit for the trouble. 

[toto]

I see these overhauled engines on TaP but not quite sure what you get. This might just be an ad for an overhaul service, dunno. 

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Piston+Engine&make=LYCOMING&model=IO-360-A3B6D&listing_id=2424135&s-type=engine

[toto]

9 minutes ago, dwanzor said:

2. Does anyone have a lead on an engine core that has been pulled that I might be able to buy and overhaul (perhaps someone that upgraded to the A3B6)?

It’s possible to convert an A3B6D to an A3B6 using the same core, so there probably isn’t much opportunity there. 

[dwanzor]

2 minutes ago, toto said:

It’s possible to convert an A3B6D to an A3B6 using the same core, so there probably isn’t much opportunity there. 

Oh really? Can you tell me about that? I asked a few of the overhaul shops about doing that and they acted like I was crazy. 

[toto]

7 minutes ago, dwanzor said:

Oh really? Can you tell me about that? I asked a few of the overhaul shops about doing that and they acted like I was crazy. 

There’s a bunch of threads on MS about the conversion and several MSers have done it. 

Here’s one to get you started

https://mooneyspace.com/topic/15898-m20j-io-360-a3b6-conversion-experience/

https://mooneyspace.com/topic/25885-io-360-a3b6d-to-a3b6-conversion/

 

 

[dwanzor]

3 minutes ago, toto said:

There’s a bunch of threads on MS about the conversion and several MSers have done it. 

Here’s one to get you started

https://mooneyspace.com/topic/15898-m20j-io-360-a3b6-conversion-experience/

https://mooneyspace.com/topic/25885-io-360-a3b6d-to-a3b6-conversion/

 

 

I have read these threads, but I was understanding this as them getting a completely different engine and installing it into the plane (with some other modifications). 

Am I misunderstanding this? 

[Slick Nick]

7 minutes ago, dwanzor said:

I have read these threads, but I was understanding this as them getting a completely different engine and installing it into the plane (with some other modifications). 

Am I misunderstanding this? 

Lycoming no longer supports the D model. If you opt for a factory overhaul, it will come back with the new accessory case and separate mags. Some (myself included) argue as to whether or not this is an upgrade or downgrade. I’ve never had an issue with the dual mag. 

[toto]

7 minutes ago, dwanzor said:

I have read these threads, but I was understanding this as them getting a completely different engine and installing it into the plane (with some other modifications). 

Am I misunderstanding this? 

I think it’s a lot of work, and most people end up doing a core exchange for a factory A3B6 engine.

I have no idea whether you would shorten the time to overhaul by doing all of the A3B6 conversion work at the same time.

I’m flying an A3B6D myself and not overly concerned about the dual mag. It has a good service history and doesn’t seem to cause many people problems if it’s maintained correctly and torqued properly. 

[KSMooniac]

I think you'll have a hard time finding a good core for sale outright. Homebuilders like to snap up 4 cyl Lycomings. Best case, you find a J getting parted-out due to corrosion and not an accident with a prop strike that might damage the engine. Supply chain issues still exist with Lycoming and other suppliers, so lead times can be awful right now as you're finding out. Experienced labor is also an issue so through-put at overhaul shops or inspection shops is also stressed.

As an experienced owner now, I'd prefer a runout to overhaul to my specs versus a fresh overhaul, but that means down time. A first-time buyer likely wants to buy and fly and not deal with a major maintenance task, which is understandable. I don't necessarily trust a factory overhaul either as they've shown they can leave out parts, or put it together with defective parts that show up years later with an intrusive AD. Fairly recently there was a shortage of engine cases for our variant, and those with cracked cases had to scrounge thoroughly. (10 years ago I could only get $500 for my airworthy extra case that I should have saved in hindsight!)

All that to say I don't think there is an easy answer or path short of paying your money and taking your chances. The advice to buy the absolute best airframe you can find/afford is still paramount. An engine can be fixed whether it needs to be, but the airframe is much harder to rectify if there are major issues.

Sent from my motorola edge plus 2023 using Tapatalk

[dwanzor]

10 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

I think you'll have a hard time finding a good core for sale outright. Homebuilders like to snap up 4 cyl Lycomings. Best case, you find a J getting parted-out due to corrosion and not an accident with a prop strike that might damage the engine. Supply chain issues still exist with Lycoming and other suppliers, so lead times can be awful right now as you're finding out. Experienced labor is also an issue so through-put at overhaul shops or inspection shops is also stressed.

As an experienced owner now, I'd prefer a runout to overhaul to my specs versus a fresh overhaul, but that means down time. A first-time buyer likely wants to buy and fly and not deal with a major maintenance task, which is understandable. I don't necessarily trust a factory overhaul either as they've shown they can leave out parts, or put it together with defective parts that show up years later with an intrusive AD. Fairly recently there was a shortage of engine cases for our variant, and those with cracked cases had to scrounge thoroughly. (10 years ago I could only get $500 for my airworthy extra case that I should have saved in hindsight!)

All that to say I don't think there is an easy answer or path short of paying your money and taking your chances. The advice to buy the absolute best airframe you can find/afford is still paramount. An engine can be fixed whether it needs to be, but the airframe is much harder to rectify if there are major issues.

Sent from my motorola edge plus 2023 using Tapatalk
 

Yea, I think this is all great advice. I am not so much worried about the downtime as the fact that what I'll spend doing the upgrades really isn't "worth it" in a sense that if I had $225k all in this plane, it probably wouldn't sell for more than $180-$200k. That is not a huge issue, but as a business minded person, it is always tough for me to do something like that. 

I own a flight school, and I probably need to worry about business over there, but not so much when it comes to my personal plane. 

[wombat]

1 hour ago, dwanzor said:

...as a business minded person ...

99% joking here, but 1% honest...  as a business minded person you should not own a GA plane.   The number of times when it makes financial sense are so small that you shouldn't even try.

I recommend like the others have said that you buy the plane you want with the most equipment you want that you can afford already installed and even with a timed out engine.  Then you just fly it until you find some reason why you have to overhaul it.    The longer the plane is down in maintenance for the engine overhaul, the better a deal it is for you because you won't be flying it and throwing money away!  hahaha

[dwanzor]

1 hour ago, wombat said:

99% joking here, but 1% honest...  as a business minded person you should not own a GA plane.   The number of times when it makes financial sense are so small that you shouldn't even try.

I recommend like the others have said that you buy the plane you want with the most equipment you want that you can afford already installed and even with a timed out engine.  Then you just fly it until you find some reason why you have to overhaul it.    The longer the plane is down in maintenance for the engine overhaul, the better a deal it is for you because you won't be flying it and throwing money away!  hahaha

Ha! Probably not wrong. 

[KSMooniac]

When you put $220k into a Mooney and later sell it for $180k, the only thing you can plan is to make sure you get $40k worth of enjoyment and utility out of it!  I think you'll find that you get much more than that, such as flying over an interstate on Thanksgiving weekend as one example that I recently enjoyed.    Having a good Mooney in the hangar and available on a whim is worth a lot to me, especially after not having it airworthy for over a year recently due to some life issues.  

[toto]

6 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

When you put $220k into a Mooney and later sell it for $180k, the only thing you can plan is to make sure you get $40k worth of enjoyment and utility out of it!  I think you'll find that you get much more than that, such as flying over an interstate on Thanksgiving weekend as one example that I recently enjoyed.    Having a good Mooney in the hangar and available on a whim is worth a lot to me, especially after not having it airworthy for over a year recently due to some life issues.  

This is the right answer. You can’t do this math without driving yourself insane. Get the plane you want, improve it in whatever ways make you happy, and enjoy the ride. 

[AndreiC]

What I do not understand is -- if you already have $225k ready to pay for an airplane, why not buy a really nice MSE that has a low-time engine and good avionics? There are quite a few on Controller around $200k. Then you have your plane ready to go on day one. 

The only downsides of that plan I can see are -- 1) you don't control the overhaul process, and don't get a warranty on the engine; and 2) the panel you get is not exactly what you want. For me, not having the plane down for a year or more for maintenance would be more important. But everyone's priorities are different.