type rating requirement

[laytonl]

When is a type rating required?  Think carefully before you answer.  
 

lee

[PT20J]

§ 61.31 Type rating requirements, additional training, and authorization requirements.

(a) Type ratings required.

A person who acts as a pilot in command of any of the following aircraft must hold a type rating for that aircraft:

(1) Large aircraft (except lighter-than-air).

(2) Turbojet-powered airplanes.

(3) Other aircraft specified by the Administrator through aircraft type certificate procedures

[EricJ]

Short answer:   When the aircraft requires it.   

[Jim Peace]

8 hours ago, EricJ said:

Short answer:   When the aircraft requires it.   

Also when insurance and or other countries require it.....even for SIC....

[laytonl]

I’ve always thought that a type rating was only required for airplanes over 12,500 lbs and jets.   I hadn’t thought of 61.31(3) until my son said he had to get a type rating to fly a Pilatus PC-9, which has a 950 hp turbine engine.  I asked several neighbors (airline pilots) and they all said a type rating is only required as per 61.31(1) and (2).  They had never paid attention to (3) either.

 I learn something new everyday - and forget most of it!

lee

[Hank]

1 minute ago, laytonl said:

I’ve always thought that a type rating was only required for airplanes over 12,500 lbs and jets.   I hadn’t thought of 61.31(3) until my son said he had to get a type rating to fly a Pilatus PC-9, which has a 950 hp turbine engine.  I asked several neighbors (airline pilots) and they all said a type rating is only required as per 61.31(1) and (2).  They had never paid attention to (3) either.

 I learn something new everyday - and forget most of it!

lee

Well, the Pilatus has a turbine engine, it's just turned around backwards. 

[PT20J]

2 hours ago, laytonl said:

I’ve always thought that a type rating was only required for airplanes over 12,500 lbs and jets.   I hadn’t thought of 61.31(3) until my son said he had to get a type rating to fly a Pilatus PC-9, which has a 950 hp turbine engine.  I asked several neighbors (airline pilots) and they all said a type rating is only required as per 61.31(1) and (2).  They had never paid attention to (3) either.

 I learn something new everyday - and forget most of it!

lee

 I used to be a lot smarter than I am now.

[Ragsf15e]

3 hours ago, Hank said:

Well, the Pilatus has a turbine engine, it's just turned around backwards. 

True, but lots of those don’t require a type (PA-46 being an easy example).  I don’t think a PC-12 or Epic do either and they probably have more hp than the pc-9.

[Igor_U]

Is Pilatus PC-9 certified at all by FAA? I thought they are flown as Experimental and FAA lists only PC24 as one with type rating . Would they need a Type rating is not certified?

[laytonl]

Yes, I believe he said it’s in the experimental category.  Lee

[MB65E]

PC9 is experimental, I wasn’t aware of the type requirement. 

PC7 is certified.

other fun facts

Experimental P51’s require a Type rating

Certified P51’s do not.  

Edited October 5, 2024 by MB65E

[Pinecone]

Probably not a type rating, but a Letter of Authorization.

[A64Pilot]

Several former military aircraft require type ratings, which I have never understood because as they have never been Certified they don’t have a type Certificate and therefore don’t have a type so how do you get a type rating for something with no type?

It’s the FAA not having a rule that really applies but they want X without issuing another FAR so they misuse an existing one. They do this all of the time.

I flew AH-64’s which are a 21,000 lb aircraft, but didn’t get a type rating and can’t get one because AH-64’s are not FAA Certified so no type, nor can I get one for a UH-1, in fact US Army pilots never get any kind of Pilots Certificate. UH-1’s can be flown in the Restricted Category as Ag aircraft but supposedly nothing else, yet I’ve seen them charging $$ and giving rides? I was allowed however to take a 50 question written test that my dog could pass, upon successfully passing it I was issued an FAA Commercial / Instrument Rotorcraft Certificate with no oral or practical test, so why don’t they just give the  Certificate?

So can anyone name any current production fixed wing aircraft that exceed 12,500 lbs but do not require a Type rating? There are two that I know of.

Edited October 5, 2024 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

I have a lot to do the next couple of days getting ready for the Hurricane, so The answer is the Air Tractor AT-802 at 16,000 lbs and the Thrush S2R-T660 at 14,150 lbs.

Neither require a Type Rating, but as the Thrush guy I had to put an entry in their logbook attesting that they had received training.

FAA didn’t require Type Ratings based on the fact that they were no more complex or different than the smaller airplanes, but they had to require something being the FAA hence the logbook entry. Of course they are sold used everyday and the new buyer gets no log book entry. 

[A64Pilot]

18 hours ago, MB65E said:

PC9 is experimental, I wasn’t aware of the type requirement. 

PC7 is certified.

other fun facts

Experimental P51’s require a Type rating

Certified P51’s do not.  

I have been told by several people that have the Type Rating that regular P-51’s require a type rating, however as no P-51 was ever Certified, they have to fly under some type of special Airworthiness Cert, but I have zero experience, but have assumed that Exhibition is likely one that most use.

[MB65E]

6 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I have been told by several people that have the Type Rating that regular P-51’s require a type rating, however as no P-51 was ever Certified, they have to fly under some type of special Airworthiness Cert, but I have zero experience, but have assumed that Exhibition is likely one that most use.

Stock P51’s, most are certified limited category. 
The experimental ones are in the Exhibition category I believe. It is a letter of authorization. A Checkride is required to fly the experimentals. 
-Matt

[M20F]

The list my understanding is anything 900hp+ now is getting a type requirement (though technically not required).  P51, P38, etc. are listed.  

[Igor_U]

21 hours ago, M20F said:

The list my understanding is anything 900hp+ now is getting a type requirement (though technically not required).  P51, P38, etc. are listed.  

Not sure about that as I can't find P-51. P-38 has MTOW of 17,500lb so it make sense IF it was ever certified... 

[M20F]

22 minutes ago, Igor_U said:

Not sure about that as I can't find P-51. P-38 has MTOW of 17,500lb so it make sense IF it was ever certified... 

That is the list for type ratings, I thought I had seen P51 on it.

This and this appear to be the more relevant pieces "Some experimental aircraft operating limitations require that before acting as PIC, a pilot must get an aircraft authorization on his or her pilot certificate. The process is similar to seeking a type rating in a standard category aircraft." // "Experimental piston powered aircraft with an engine over 800 HP and a Vne (never exceed speed) greater than 250 knots"

Not anything that really pertains to me, I just recall seeing the 900HP thing somewhere a while back.  Guess it was 800.

[Pinecone]

I always thought it was an LOA (Letter of Authorization) for the warbirds that were never a Standard Airworthiness.

[bigmo]

I probably need to read into the why a bit more, but I find it odd that the FAA requires Special Training on certain a/c, but excludes a Type Rating - ie the Mitsubishi MU-2.

I guess it’s the why/logic behind that decision I don’t understand. Not why the training…but why not just require a TR.

[M20F]

5 minutes ago, bigmo said:

I probably need to read into the why a bit more, but I find it odd that the FAA requires Special Training on certain a/c, but excludes a Type Rating - ie the Mitsubishi MU-2.

I guess it’s the why/logic behind that decision I don’t understand. Not why the training…but why not just require a TR.

Stop applying logic to governmental agencies. 

[A64Pilot]

On 10/6/2024 at 12:50 AM, MB65E said:

Stock P51’s, most are certified limited category. 
The experimental ones are in the Exhibition category I believe. It is a letter of authorization. A Checkride is required to fly the experimentals. 
-Matt

To come back to this, P-51’s aren’t Certified, they are flown in limited, exhibition whatever but not Certified. Not trying to be pedantic but with the FAA in particular words matter a lot.

Now the FAA has a Military Certification office that Certifies Commercial derivative aircraft, which I think are for aircraft like the old Army U-21 which was pretty much a Queen Air with the King Air’s turbines for example, but again it wasn’t Certified as the Queen Air 

But for pure Military aircraft as far as the FAA is concerned there is no Certification at all, especially any aircraft that starts with an A or F or B Like Attack, Fighter or Bomber. I can show you Military laws that require all parts from those aircraft must be demilitarized, IE destroyed, never sold. Same for the Aircraft, they are never allowed out in the Civilian world, yet there are AH-1’s and I’m certain several obsolete fixed wing Attack and Fighters flown by Civilians, often on Government contract.

As a Civilian Test Pilot working for the US Army Technical Testing Center I flew AH-64’s, but still had no type of pilots license. I did actually but it wasn’t required.

I think if memory serves that strange as it sounds but that I had an FAA flight physical though.

The FAA is good or bad if you will about taking an existing rule that doesn’t apply and using it, or pretty much ignoring an existing rule.

Even something as silly as the Aircraft Airworthiness Cert must be carried in the aircraft at all times right?

But in FAR 137 it allows a copy to be carried in the aircraft as long as the original is on file in the office which is different than what 91.203 says.

The FAR’s seem clear as day when you read them, but trust me the FAA itself throws all kinds of exceptions in them yet doesn’t bother to say except for part 137 in my example, you just have to know.

[MB65E]

Correct. I should have been more clear to state they have a special airworthiness certificated in the limited category. 
The limited aircraft are not experimental. 
The limited aircraft do not require the Additional certificate rating/LOA to fly them. Only the Experimental’s require the additional certificate.  
Clear as Mud, :-)

-Matt 

[A64Pilot]

See I’m even confused as to how a P-51 can be Experimental, yes I know many are hugely modified and not through the STC process because there is no Type Certificate to modify for one. But by what means are they Experimental? You can’t just make your Mooney Experimental, you can if your in search of an STC or are the manufacturer but I don’t think you can just because you want to race it for example, yet obviously they can old Warbirds.

But the FAA had to do something because back before the Value Jet crash their mandate from Congress was to promote and regulate aviation, so rather than come up with an entire set of regulations just for old warbirds they tried to bend existing ones to fit is my theory, just a theory.

After the Value Jet crash they are no longer required to promote Aviation, just regulate it.

In the last six months or so the FAA has been giving Space-X a lot of trouble, which made me wonder what do they have to do with it, they are Aviation, shouldn’t the Space agency be the ones in charge of well you know space flight?

So the roles and missions of the FAA often confuse me.