The O360 A1D Blues

[jghyde]

I own a 1964 M20D that was converted to an M20C in the year it was born. Since I purchased it, I have put in a Garmin panel, overhauled the prop, installed a Powerflow exhaust... Yeah, I've put some coin into modernizing it! It came with every speed mod except the one-piece belly.

I bought the Mooney five years ago with about 1,600 hours on an overhauled O360 A1D engine that had a recent top overhaul. The engine ran great with 70+ compressions on all four cylinders even up and until my annual in April 2024.

A couple of months prior to the April annual, my IA and I decided it was time to get a new engine. The twice-overhauled engine currently installed is the original engine, with a installation date of 1/31/1964. By April 2024, the engine had 2,450 SMOH hours on it.

Because of the age of the motor, instead of overhauling it, I decided to purchase a factory remanufactured engine and placed an $8,500 deposit on a Lycoming factory reman. When I ordered the engine in February 2024, I was okay with the 16-19 month lead time as the old engine was purring good, even at 2,450 hours. I'd muscle through.

Then, during the annual inspection's oil change, we discovered the 'ol 60-year-old engine was making metal— enough metal to give me pause about continuing to operate it. Of course, the IA wasn't going to sign it off either.

Meanwhile, Lycoming gave me a delivery date for the factory reman on November 2025! The old engine is required for trade-in to get the lower price on the reman.

I'm obviously grounded for a long while—19 months. 17 more months to go! Does anyone have any ideas about how I can get flying again without having to spend to ton of $$$ on a second engine, assuming if I can even find one? 

Edited July 7, 2024 by jghyde

[N201MKTurbo]

What did your IA find in your engine? Do you have pictures? 
Is your IA refusing to complete the inspection? Is he planning to complete the inspection after you get a new engine? 

[Paul Thomas]

How much metal? Lycoming has a publication on what course of action depending no how much metal is being produced.

[EricJ]

16 minutes ago, Paul Thomas said:

How much metal? Lycoming has a publication on what course of action depending no how much metal is being produced.

And it's a surprisingly large amount that is allowed.    Mine started making metal, and I had the opportunity at a local IA seminar to talk to both the Lycoming rep and the rep from the local engine shop who had previously done a tear-down on my engine with the previous owner.   Even though it was making a fair amount of metal, they both said to just keep running it and keep an eye on it, as per the Lycoming SB.   

Anther possibility is to send the metal that is being collected off for analysis to see if you can get a better idea of where it's coming from. 

Are there any pics of the metal or idea of how much, what size, etc?

[Ragsf15e]

Any thoughts to just doing an overhaul at a reputable shop?  They can do it as well as a reman even on an old engine.  I realize that the deposit might be an issue but with such a long lead time there might be a way around that?  It might save half that time or more…

[McMooney]

from what i've read, reman, factory overhaul, overhaul are just variants of the same thing, all are expected to make tbo,   all that to say, you could cancel the reman and go for an overhaul there or somewhere else

[skykrawler]

The problem is the availability of cylinders.

[Pinecone]

4 hours ago, McMooney said:

from what i've read, reman, factory overhaul, overhaul are just variants of the same thing, all are expected to make tbo,   all that to say, you could cancel the reman and go for an overhaul there or somewhere else

A field overhaul can be good or a minimum check out of the engine.  Can be HUGE differences.

Factory reman is to all new specs.  So, while some parts may be used, the engine is considered new.

Factory overhaul is a good overhaul.  Not as good as some shops, but better than a lot of them.  Check the lead times, may be as long as Reman.

[Pinecone]

A lot will depend on where the metal is coming from. 

[Jsno]

3 hours ago, skykrawler said:

The problem is the availability of cylinders.

I overhauled mine during the Covid shortage.  I bought overhauled nickle plated cylinders from JJAircraft

[Jsno]

If your metal pile is as wide as a pencil eraser Lycoming recommends that you repair it.  If it is steel it is probably the cam and tappets.  You could replace those in a short time.  That would get you to your reman engine.

[jetdriven]

24 minutes ago, Jsno said:

If your metal pile is as wide as a pencil eraser Lycoming recommends that you repair it.  If it is steel it is probably the cam and tappets.  You could replace those in a short time.  That would get you to your reman engine.

by the time you do the cam and lifters its 15 or 20 grand.  Good money after bad. If you want the engine sooner than 2 years, pull it and ship to an overhaul shop that can get to it in a timely manner.

[Jsno]

On 7/7/2024 at 11:12 AM, jetdriven said:

by the time you do the cam and lifters its 15 or 20 grand.  Good money after bad. If you want the engine sooner than 2 years, pull it and ship to an overhaul shop that can get to it in a timely manner.

I have my A&P so I was only thinking of it from a parts cost perspective and not shop labor.

[jghyde]

On 7/6/2024 at 9:03 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

What did your IA find in your engine? Do you have pictures? 
Is your IA refusing to complete the inspection? Is he planning to complete the inspection after you get a new engine? 

The engine has 2480 hours TSMOH and was installed in the Mooney on 1/31/1964. IA wasn't enthusiastic about signing it off. 

[Pinecone]

If it is running well, have him sign it off with discrepancies. 

[philiplane]

10 hours ago, jghyde said:

The engine has 2480 hours TSMOH and was installed in the Mooney on 1/31/1964. IA wasn't enthusiastic about signing it off. 

Enthusiasm and facts are two different things. He might not be happy about signing it off, but if it's within specs, he should. There is a detailed SB regarding metal found in oil filters. Most mechanics freak out when they learn how much is allowed. The key is to find out where it's coming from, and then fix it, if needed. Pitting lifters can be a source of ferrous metal, and so long as the amount is small, the engine will run for dozens, or even hundreds of hours before cam lobe wear becomes a problem. And the problem would only be a slight loss of power. The engine won't simply quit. 

Most times, an engine that made a bit of metal will make less on the next sample. You should be using an oil with the Lycoming anti-scuff additive, and Camguard should be added as well. In combination, these can arrest the corrosion that causes the problem you're experiencing. 

I would follow the Lycoming SB instructions, and hopefully you'll continue to fly safely until the new engine is delivered.

[jghyde]

The volume of metal was at the limit of the SB, according to AP. 

[201Steve]

2 hours ago, jghyde said:

The volume of metal was at the limit of the SB, according to AP. 

Mechanic finds metal and takes no pics! ? Just says it was too much?

 

but… holy smokes! Last built in 1964!!!? That’s incredible. 

[Skates97]

Try reaching out to Airmark Engines in FL. I just put an overhauled O-360-A1D in my M20D from them and shipped my old engine back as a core. Waiting for them to process it and the core refund. Mine was running well when I pulled it, similar situation to you. Cutting open the filter on the last oil change there wasn't any metal. The oil cooler shop said there was a little metal in the cooler when they did the overhaul which I suppose might have started during the 41 hours between my last oil change and the engine getting pulled, but that filter went back on the engine core so I don't know.

It was 7,445 total hours on the engine and 2,336 SMOH when I pulled it. 

I had done the same thing with Air Power, putting in an order in April 2023 with I think 12-14 month lead time and then was told in April of this year it would be at least January 2025 which is when I started looking for other options and found Airmark with a core they could overhaul. They had it done in about 7 weeks and on its way to my mechanic.

https://intothesky.com/2024/06/30/engine-replacement-on-your-terms-not-lifes-terms/