67 F GPS navcom advice please

[Bobaran]

Currently have no GPS in my 67 m20f panel. My glideslope is inop, and I'm vfr only but would like to make it ifr. The TKM MX170B seems to have problems. Any advice?

 

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[Ragsf15e]

29 minutes ago, Bobaran said:

 

Currently have no GPS in my 67 m20f panel. My glideslope is inop, and I'm vfr only but would like to make it ifr. The TKM MX170B seems to have problems. Any advice?

 

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Gns355 is real nice and will be supported for a long time.  Cheaper than a gtn 650 but that’s another option.  Finally an avidyne 440 would work as well.  Personally I like garmin.

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

Gns355 is real nice and will be supported for a long time.  Cheaper than a gtn 650 but that’s another option.  Finally an avidyne 440 would work as well.  Personally I like garmin.

I think you meant GNC355. I have it in my plane and love it. It's only GPS/COM, no ground based nav but is easy to use and has been very reliable. 

[markgrue]

Avidyne 440 is my choice for full function gps nav com.  I am a firm believer in keeping ground based nav capabilities.   

[Pinecone]

I am also a fan of keeping ground based nav.  There are enough posts about loss of GPS.

I flew 18 months with a GTN-650Xi.  I hated it so much, I added a GTN-750Xi.

For a very good VFR and IFR panel, you can go with 2x G-5, GTN-650Xi and GFC-500 autopilot.  I like the GTX-345 for ADS-B Out and In (traffic and weather).

If you want to go higher end, replace one of the G-5s with a G-3X touch and you will smile a lot (after you write the check and fly it  ).

[midlifeflyer]

Although I always request an RNAV approach even to a big airport with an ILS, I would  still want both for IFR.  Two main reaosns.

One reason has been stated. GPS failures and interference does happen.

The other is much more basic. There are number of tasks which you can do with GPS if your knowledge level is very high but which are dirt easy when tuning in a VOR.  It can happen anywhere but a great example is almost any SOCAL TEC route (assume you are not using Foreflight or Garmin Pilot). They are VOR based, with lots of radial and airway intercepts. Someone actually raised this one recently in another forum because they couldn't figure out how to set it up.  The TEC route from KSMO to KEMT is  SMO SMO125 V64 SLI V8 POXKU V363 POM.

Except for one gotcha, an IFR pilot with only VOR would have no trouble with it.  But unless I was in SOCAL, I'd expect an 70% or higher failure rate if I gave it as an RNAV scenario in recurrent training. 

 

[JoeM]

I know you are asking for navcom advice, but if you building an IFR panel, your AP becomes important too. Does your Brittain work? Mine does (with help from many here and Kevin Westbrook), but I am planning for a BK Aerocruze 100 as well. I have (and recommend) an Avidyne 440 which includes a glideslope and VOR capability. The com works well too.   I bought mine used from Wentworth. Avidyne has great customer support.  

[Utah20Gflyer]

I had the exact same radios when I bought my plane and unsurprisingly my TKM radio also had issues.  Ultimately I went with 2x GI 275s, GNC355 gps/com and a GNC 255 nav/com.  This set up gives me everything I need for IFR but nothing extra.  I’d like to add an auto pilot but am waiting for the bank account to recover.  
 

When I bought my plane it had a Garmin 320 transponder.  I replaced that with a 327 which is a slide in replacement.   
 

I like the panel a lot and find it to be very functional and easy to use.  

[gwav8or]

I recently did a 355 GPS and 2xG5.  I added a new panel overlay too.  I already had 2 kx-155 radios so I kept one for ILS/VOR approaches and for redundancy in the event of GPS failure.  I had the kx-155 overhauled/refurbished.  Absolutely love the panel and it is very functional for IFR.  I already had the 345 transponder so I also have ADSB In/Out. Writing the checks hurt at first but I don't regret the panel upgrade one bit.

[M20F]

On 6/22/2024 at 8:32 PM, Bobaran said:

Any advice?

 

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How much money would you like to spend?

[MikeOH]

@gwav8or

Where did you have your KX-155 overhauled and, if you want to share, the cost?

[M20F]

On 6/23/2024 at 10:07 AM, midlifeflyer said:

There are number of tasks which you can do with GPS if your knowledge level is very high but which are dirt easy when tuning in a VOR.  
 

The TEC route from KSMO to KEMT is  SMO SMO125 V64 SLI V8 POXKU V363 POM.

 

This I feel is highly dependent on how you learned.  Give me a stopwatch, enroute chart, pencil, and a ruler, and I can achieve the world. 
 
I do ok on the automation though and like my 650+GPSS

I do find it harder (as an older pilot) because the automation is 99% easier but that 1% difference of where I know it’s wrong and I want something else jacks me up at times. 
 
But truth be told for 35yrs my radio call has been can I get a vector for that :-)

[Bobaran]

As little as possible $.

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[M20F]

15 minutes ago, Bobaran said:

As little as possible $.

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Garmin 430 and a new head if yours won’t suffice.  I would have to read the FARs to determine minimum legally for IFR but a 430 is a solid radio/GPS.  

[Utah20Gflyer]

15 minutes ago, Bobaran said:

As little as possible $.

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I think the minimum would be a 355 gps com and a G5 HSI, you wouldn’t have ILS capability but would still have all the GPS stuff plus VOR and LOC approaches.  
 

Have you diagnosed the ILS issue?  Neither of those radios have ILS receivers in them so either you have a stand alone ILS receiver box or it’s incorporated into your CDI.   I have a stand alone ILS receiver I’ll sell you super cheap if that will help you get back that capability.  
 

If you get a GI 275 HSI they have better compatibility with older radios and you could have everything going into that.  Before I had the 255 installed I had a king kx175b feeding it nav information.  Something to consider.   Your installer may be able to do the same thing with a g5 but not sure about that.  I’ve been told they only work with the more modern digital radios?

[McMooney]

My Birdy, except for a different panel layout and transponder, was equipped the same.

she's since been upgraded with a gns480, 2xG5 and pma8000g audio panel.  

do it all over again i'd go gnx375 and g5's and be satisfied with localizer approaches.  Truth is, the few time's i've needed precision like capability, the runways didn't have ILS.

problem i found was with the radios, the mx/kx170bs don't directly support ILS and the necc component the king ki-214 is almost unobtainable meaning if you want ILS and LPV you might as well go full on gps/nav/comm.

 

 

 

 

[Pinecone]

13 hours ago, M20F said:

Garmin 430 and a new head if yours won’t suffice.  I would have to read the FARs to determine minimum legally for IFR but a 430 is a solid radio/GPS.  

Why even throw money on a product at the end of support?  Even with the Avidyne as plug in replacement, just install it instead of spending money on a 430?

If you HAVE a 430, no reason to change it until needed.

[M20F]

3 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Why even throw money on a product at the end of support?  Even with the Avidyne as plug in replacement, just install it instead of spending money on a 430?

If you HAVE a 430, no reason to change it until needed.

People are still flying with KX170B’s. The 430 will be around long after we are dead.  In the end it’s all about the wallet and it is the cheapest option for the OP versus the $25K set ups people are recommending.  

[Bobaran]

On 6/24/2024 at 6:07 PM, Utah20Gflyer said:

I think the minimum would be a 355 gps com and a G5 HSI, you wouldn’t have ILS capability but would still have all the GPS stuff plus VOR and LOC approaches.  
 

Have you diagnosed the ILS issue?  Neither of those radios have ILS receivers in them so either you have a stand alone ILS receiver box or it’s incorporated into your CDI.   I have a stand alone ILS receiver I’ll sell you super cheap if that will help you get back that capability.  
 

If you get a GI 275 HSI they have better compatibility with older radios and you could have everything going into that.  Before I had the 255 installed I had a king kx175b feeding it nav information.  Something to consider.   Your installer may be able to do the same thing with a g5 but not sure about that.  I’ve been told they only work with the more modern digital radios?

I'm not ifr rated but I would like to make the plane IFR capable. I have not diagnosed the ILS issue yet except there is power to the CDI but it does not respond to a vor frequency from the 740b nav or to an ils frequency from the 740b.  The DME seems to be dead too. Do I need an ILS receiver?

[Utah20Gflyer]

6 hours ago, Bobaran said:

I'm not ifr rated but I would like to make the plane IFR capable. I have not diagnosed the ILS issue yet except there is power to the CDI but it does not respond to a vor frequency from the 740b nav or to an ils frequency from the 740b.  The DME seems to be dead too. Do I need an ILS receiver?

Does the other nav radio and CDI work correctly?  
 

The two radios you have are slide in replacements for each other which is helpful because if the other radio/CDI combo works you can swap the radios and determine if it’s the radio or CDI that is bad.  
 

You need an ILS receiver if you want ILS capability but you don’t need it for IFR.   In particular if you get a WAAS GPS which will allow you to do LPV approaches.    You used to need ILS capability to satisfy the precision approach requirement of the Instrument checkride but you can use LPV approaches now.  You also need two non precision approaches which could be RNAV, VOR or Localizer.  The GPS will provide DME functionality so you wouldn’t need the old INOP one.  
 

Personally I like having the option of ILS, but it’s not A must.  Ultimately the decision on what goes into a IFR panel is determined by what you are willing to fly into instrument conditions with.   Technically you could fly IFR in a plane with a single nav radio and CDI as long as you had your pitot static, Transponder and VOR check current.  Few people would want to do that though.  
 

You might consider taking a couple flights with a CFII in your airplane and a few different rental planes and see what you think you need after comparing them.  

[gwav8or]

On 6/24/2024 at 4:53 PM, MikeOH said:

@gwav8or

Where did you have your KX-155 overhauled and, if you want to share, the cost?

Absolutely.  I had Ed at kx-155.com do the work.  I would not hesitate to send another radio to him.  Very good work.  Ed specializes in the kx-155 and has decades of experience.  I sent my radio to him and a couple days later he sent me videos of the issues that he found with the radio.  I approved the repairs and again a couple days later he sent me a video of my repaired/overhauled radio.  The radio looks and performs like it's brand new.  I believe the cost was right around $2k.  I knew what the cost would be going into it and felt like it was 100% worth it.  To get a Garmin radio purchased and installed, the price would have been at least 3x what I paid to have the kx-155 repaired.  I feel like if I even get 2-3 years use out of it, it will still be worth it.

[Pinecone]

21 hours ago, M20F said:

People are still flying with KX170B’s. The 430 will be around long after we are dead.  In the end it’s all about the wallet and it is the cheapest option for the OP versus the $25K set ups people are recommending.  

Yes, but, IMO, it is false economy to spend the purchase and install money (and time) on a piece of avionics that next week could have a screen failure and be only suitable for the trash can.

There is a HUGE difference between using something in the plane that is working and installing something that is near end of life.  And that is no longer supported by the manufacturer.  And that certain major parts are no longer made.

[Bobaran]

Very helpful to know I can switch the radios to check the MX170B. I know the KX170B nav does work with a CDI.
Do these navs only act as radios which transfer the signal to the CDI?

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[McMooney]

The CDI is a KI-214 and it's probably unrepairable 

there are a couple of other ways to get an ils but eventually you'll give up and buy another radio/cdi.   note, this is just for the ILS, i believe the radios work just fine for VOR/LOC with available cdis.

 you can buy kx170bs for a few hundred bucks, probably buy a dozen for the cost of garmins cheapest nav/com.

 

 

 

 

 

[M20F]

4 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Yes, but, IMO, it is false economy to spend the purchase and install money (and time) on a piece of avionics that next week could have a screen failure and be only suitable for the trash can.

There is a HUGE difference between using something in the plane that is working and installing something that is near end of life.  And that is no longer supported by the manufacturer.  And that certain major parts are no longer made.

There is a huge difference between a $6K install and a $25K install.  You could buy 4x430 and still come out ahead.