Savvy and your Data…

[Schllc]

I am in the process of selling a plane and while I am not a paying member of Savvy, I have taken advantage of their data analysis tool and uploaded quite a bit of engine data to their website. 
I was recently surprised when the buyer contacted me and had been provided all of this data by Savvy without my knowledge. 
I do not recall them stipulating that they would share the data with others when I uploaded, and the service is free sooo….

I had nothing in the engine data to be concerned about, but thought that this is a gap in their system. 
they should either make it clear when you upload that they can do what they want with the data, or ask permission before sharing. 
 

fwiw, this isn’t really a complaint, just a warning/notification to any of you guys sharing data, they will give it to whomever asks…

 

caveat emptor. 

[exM20K]

Not good. This casual approach to privacy and data ownership is similar to Blackstone labs and was cause enough for me to cease using them.  
I will check on a privacy opt out with Savvy, though this should be the default.

this sharing does not appear to comport with their policies.

https://apps.savvyaviation.com/legal

-dan

Edited May 21 by exM20K

[Schllc]

Kind of a doubled edge sword really. I would never hide known issues with an airplane from a buyer, I do not want this on my conscience, but notification and or context is also important. 
receiving an email with a detailed analysis based on data I provided, to someone else without my knowledge, much less consent, kinda rubbed me the wrong way. 
I went in and deleted everything I have ever uploaded to their site.  I have no idea if this means they no longer have access, it likely doesn’t, and I will create my own graphing and trend software to look at data in the future. 
It seems that in the brave new world, nothing is sacred any longer. 

[kortopates]

I assure you that only you can give access to your data.

But that wouldn’t preclude access to an analyst commenting on your data to a prospective buyer - is that your concern?

Feel free to DM me with specifics.
Since it’s a Mooney i am most likely involved.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, Schllc said:

I am in the process of selling a plane and while I am not a paying member of Savvy, I have taken advantage of their data analysis tool and uploaded quite a bit of engine data to their website. 
I was recently surprised when the buyer contacted me and had been provided all of this data by Savvy without my knowledge. 
I do not recall them stipulating that they would share the data with others when I uploaded, and the service is free sooo….

I had nothing in the engine data to be concerned about, but thought that this is a gap in their system. 
they should either make it clear when you upload that they can do what they want with the data, or ask permission before sharing. 
 

fwiw, this isn’t really a complaint, just a warning/notification to any of you guys sharing data, they will give it to whomever asks…

 

caveat emptor. 

I’d definitely be upset with them for that.  Even an analyst talking to a prospective buyer about MY data would bug me.  Like you, I have nothing to hide, but they at least need to ask and make clear what is being shared. Sharing should not be the default.

[bcg]

2 hours ago, exM20K said:

Not good. This casual approach to privacy and data ownership is similar to Blackstone labs and was cause enough for me to cease using them.  
I will check on a privacy opt out with Savvy, though this should be the default.

this sharing does not appear to comport with their policies.

https://apps.savvyaviation.com/legal

-dan

I can really understand the concern with Blackstone since you paid for that service, you definitely should own that data.

With Saavy, if you're using the free analysis service, it's a little different in my view.  When you're not paying for the product then you have to expect that you, or your data, are the product.  There should probably be an option to opt out but, it would be completely reasonable for them to then say that if we can't share your data, you'll need to have a paid subscription to use this service.  To some extent we all know that the data is shared in an anonymized fashion or they wouldn't be able to give us information about where we fall in with the averages of airplanes like ours.  For those that are paying for Saavy Analysis, or a higher level, I think the subscriber should absolutely control the data.

I'm of two minds on this, while the engine is mine, I'd like my data to be private but also, if I buy something that has been getting analysis done by the previous owner, I'd really like to have that historical data to spot changes in trends and I'd want to give that same benefit to someone that bought something from me.

[Ragsf15e]

7 minutes ago, kortopates said:

I assure you that only you can give access to your data.

But that wouldn’t preclude access to an analyst commenting on your data to a prospective buyer - is that your concern?

Feel free to DM me with specifics.
Since it’s a Mooney i am most likely involved.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Would an analyst comment on your old data with a prospective buyer without your permission? Because that would seem wrong without permission. I’d have nothing to hide, but it is my data.

[exM20K]

22 minutes ago, kortopates said:

But that wouldn’t preclude access to an analyst commenting on your data to a prospective buyer - is that your concern?

I am a paid subscriber.

I do not understand this question.  If the analyst's comments to a prospective buyer are with my prior permission, then obviously we're all good in the hood.  If the analyst is doing so w/o my permission, that's  a problem for me.

 

also, the email on savvy's website privacy@savvymx.com bounces.

-de

[Schllc]

2 hours ago, kortopates said:

I assure you that only you can give access to your data.

But that wouldn’t preclude access to an analyst commenting on your data to a prospective buyer - is that your concern?

Feel free to DM me with specifics.
Since it’s a Mooney i am most likely involved.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You cannot assure me of this, because Savvy has already provided the data to the buyer, in the middle of a transaction, and I was never contacted for permission.  
I do not agree that there is a distinction between providing files or commenting on the data.  The analysis was not shallow, and it even suggested an escrow for the engine since it was less than 200 hours from a top overhaul. This easily could easily affect the outcome of a purchase with just speculation. 
Savvy is using the data to provide an opinion to the buyer without my knowledge. They are in this instance one and the same. 
I’m also not sure it’s a “concern”, because I have nothing to hide and it’s already done. 
I was just not aware that this would happen and wanted to let everyone else know that their data is not confidential. 
 

The service is free, and I uploaded of my own volition, so I’m responsible.  I just wish I would have known that this is how it would be handled prior to posting my info.
I am not angry or upset, just surprised, and a little disappointed. 

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

I assure you that only you can give access to your data.

But that wouldn’t preclude access to an analyst commenting on your data to a prospective buyer - is that your concern?

That doesn't sound reassuring.    It's like being assured your address is kept private, but an analyst might share detailed directions to your house with somebody without your knowledge.

 

[PT20J]

@kortopates can you delete all your data and if so is it really gone from the database (or at least deidentified)?

[kortopates]

3 hours ago, Schllc said:

You cannot assure me of this, because Savvy has already provided the data to the buyer, in the middle of a transaction, and I was never contacted for permission.  
I do not agree that there is a distinction between providing files or commenting on the data.  The analysis was not shallow, and it even suggested an escrow for the engine since it was less than 200 hours from a top overhaul. This easily could easily affect the outcome of a purchase with just speculation. 
Savvy is using the data to provide an opinion to the buyer without my knowledge. They are in this instance one and the same. 
I’m also not sure it’s a “concern”, because I have nothing to hide and it’s already done. 
I was just not aware that this would happen and wanted to let everyone else know that their data is not confidential. 
 

The service is free, and I uploaded of my own volition, so I’m responsible.  I just wish I would have known that this is how it would be handled prior to posting my info.
I am not angry or upset, just surprised, and a little disappointed. 

I'll try to respond but much this is speculation since I don't know which aircraft this. I get a lot of pre-buy question/reviews. They come in all different ways. Its not our intent to comment on your data without your permission. Most often a buyer gets the data from an owner and loads it up for us to review. Its very common for a buyer to share their data just like sharing their logs. But from your comments, saying this wasn't done with your permission has believing this fell through the cracks so I would like to better understand so this doesn't happen again by ensuring proper checks are done.

 

"I do not agree that there is a distinction between providing files or commenting on the data."

Fair enough. But the prospective buyer was never granted access to pull up your data - only you as the data owner can do this.

"The analysis was not shallow, and it even suggested an escrow for the engine since it was less than 200 hours from a top overhaul. This easily could easily affect the outcome of a purchase with just speculation. "

This would have come from the Mx Pre-buy advisor - it has nothing to do with your upload engine data, but must of come from either log book review or statements from the prospective buyer. The Pre-buy advisor doesn't even look at data. That's most often me. 

"This easily could easily affect the outcome of a purchase with just speculation." Agreed, but this is coming from log book review.

So speculating here as I would like to really know, but I suspect what happened here is the Pre-buy manager asked me to answer the pre-buy clients request to review the owners data. I got a request as follows:

"The last few flights from Nxxxxx were uploaded the other day by the owner. Would you mind quickly reviewing them?
Thank you!"

I am out of town right now at NASA full time this week with a limited schedule and I didn't verify the source of the data. I assumed, incorrectly that the owner loaded the data specifically so we could look at it to comment to help sell the plane. Why else would the owner tell the prospective buyer they had uploaded more data.... But maybe the owner hadn't. I don't really know and am speculating here but really would like to better understand the details to avoid this happening again. This has never been an issue before, but as mentioned, its more often the case that the owner has provided the data to the buyer. What this case is teaching me is that we shouldn't be commenting on data not physically owned by the client or data that the owner has not physically given the client permissions to review. i.e. if the buyer can directly review the data then we shouldn't either. I think that would be clear and simple. But understand I can't speak for Savvy officially, I am one person on the team, but I will pursue making this case based on this experience if I am getting this right.

My apologies for this going the way it did. I should have looked closer before responding to this request - again assuming I know the case.

@PT20J As to questions about once the data is deleted is it really gone. I can tell you its no longer accessible to us. You guys are considered the owner.  To the best of my knowledge its permanently gone but I don't work on the IT side and not the best person to answer this.  

@exM20K privacy@savvymx.com is an old domain, the correct one should be privacy@savvyaviation.com. If you tell me where, I can get it fixed.

Edited May 22 by kortopates

[Schllc]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

So speculating here as I would like to really know, but I suspect what happened here is the Pre-buy manager asked me to answer the pre-buy clients request to review the owners data. I got a request as follows:

"The last few flights from Nxxxxx were uploaded the other day by the owner. Would you mind quickly reviewing them?
Thank you!"

That appears to be the breakdown. 
No one checked with me to verify.   An email notification would have been easy, you’re required to provide one when registering. 
again,

I do not think that Savvy had any ill intentions, nor should anything I said here be construed otherwise.

 

[exM20K]

12 hours ago, kortopates said:

@exM20K privacy@savvymx.com is an old domain, the correct one should be privacy@savvyaviation.com. If you tell me where, I can get it fixed.

https://apps.savvyaviation.com/legal
-dan

[natdm]

I totally get how that would make you feel uncomfortable. It does appear to be one of those gray areas in companies like Blackstone and Savvy. Imagine the case where a seller had a terrible issue in the engine, and Savvy knew about it. When a buyer came to Savvy and asked them for a pre-purchase inspection to be done on a plane they already have history of, does that mean they have to act like they don't know, and merely suggest a rugged analysis, nudging in a direction to find the underlying issue?

Same issue on Blackstone. New owner goes to BS with a sample and they have to pretend to not have previous data indicating the engine is making lots of metal? 

I don't know what the solution is, and I don't think anyone is the 'bad guy'. I love the open-ness of it all, but not everyone does. 

[wombat]

1 hour ago, natdm said:

 It does appear to be one of those gray areas in companies like Blackstone and Savvy.

I kind of get your point, but I don't think it's a gray area.   I think it's pretty black and white that Savvy (and/or any other company) cannot share your data with anyone else without your permission.    Your phone company shouldn't tell anyone other than the account holder anything at all about your account without a court order.   Your email provider should be the same.  Same with your doctor, lawyer(s) if you have any, and accountant, and so on and so forth. I don't think SavvyMX should even admit that they have any data at all on an aircraft without the owner's permission.   They could accept a request to share without admitting if they have any data or not and then forward the request to the owner.

If the seller is scummy and is hiding pertinent data and the buyer was materially harmed by it our legal system is the way to redress this situation.

I commend @Schllc and @kortopates for working through what happened and figuring out that there was a process failure.   I hope @kortopates can work with the rest of the SavvyMX staff and make an improvement to the process so this doesn't happen again.

[Shadrach]

I see the concern.  However, at least with an aircraft, you have the option of whether to share data with a third party or not. 

Modern cars are storing more and more data history and there is nothing any of us can do about it.  Porsche ECUs have been logging redline overruns for more than 20 years. Anyone with a reasonably sophisticated scanner can see how many excursions past redline and what category for the totality of the car's life. Dealer service history is public, as are emissions test results.

So, while I understand the concern, there is little to stop the collection of data. It does not mean we have to like it.

I expect that in the not so distant future, GA engine monitors will capture and permanently store any engine data that is outside of the limitations section of the TCDS.

If a buyer has contracted Savvy to help with a purchase and they have data from an airplane that is on the potential buy list, it is completely normal for that buyer to want to know what that data reflects whether in raw data or analysis.  Savvy is acting as the buyer's agent and should be expected to represent their interests.

Similar issues come up with oil analysis. I fully understand the desire to keep that information private.

If you don't want your data tied to you or your plane, you should probably use a bogus N number.

[Pinecone]

33 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

If a buyer has contracted Savvy to help with a purchase and they have data from an airplane that is on the potential buy list, it is completely normal for that buyer to want to know what that data reflects whether in raw data or analysis.  Savvy is acting as the buyer's agent and should be expected to represent their interests.

I disagree.  Savvy needs to separate the two tasks and people doing those tasks.

They should NOT use data from the analysis side on the pre-buy side.   IMO, they should not even disclose that the aircraft is in their program.  They can have a STANDARD statement that they or the buyer should ask that question.  But that should be for ALL airplanes, not just ones they know are in the program.

If the buyer asks if it is and for the data, that should result in a reply that says that either the buyer or Savvy can contact the owner and ask if it is in the program and if it is, if they will allow access to the data.

[Shadrach]

11 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

I disagree.  Savvy needs to separate the two tasks and people doing those tasks.

They should NOT use data from the analysis side on the pre-buy side.   IMO, they should not even disclose that the aircraft is in their program.  They can have a STANDARD statement that they or the buyer should ask that question.  But that should be for ALL airplanes, not just ones they know are in the program.

If the buyer asks if it is and for the data, that should result in a reply that says that either the buyer or Savvy can contact the owner and ask if it is in the program and if it is, if they will allow access to the data.

You can’t really separate those tasks which is why Lawyers check for conflicts before taking on a client. If savvy has historical data on an aircraft that a buyer they are assisting in a potential is considering, how do they not disclose that that they have that information? 
 

A compromise would be to ensure that Savvy requests the seller’s permission to disclose. If the seller says no, Savvy can then inform the buyer that the seller refuses to release the data. Seller gets to keep their data private, buyer may decide to walk away.  
Everybody wins or everybody loses…

[Pinecone]

Just now, Shadrach said:

You can’t really separate those tasks which is why Lawyers check for conflicts before taking on a client. If savvy has historical data on an aircraft that a buyer they are assisting in a potential is considering, how do they not disclose that that they have that information? 
 

A compromise would be to ensure that Savvy requests the seller’s permission to disclose. If the seller says no, Savvy can then inform the buyer that the seller refuses to release the data. Seller gets to keep their data private, buyer may decide to walk away.  
Everybody wins or everybody loses…

They compartmentalize.  Those doing pre-buy services are not doing data services.  And vice versa.

They cannot, ethically, let the buyer know that they know.  Until the seller says it is OK to do so.

Savvy asking for access first and then telling the buyer that the seller will not release is giving out a LOT of info.

[Shadrach]

13 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

They compartmentalize.  Those doing pre-buy services are not doing data services.  And vice versa.

They cannot, ethically, let the buyer know that they know.  Until the seller says it is OK to do so.

Savvy asking for access first and then telling the buyer that the seller will not release is giving out a LOT of info.

So you’re saying that if Savvy is conducting a prebuy service and they have data that is germane to the condition of the engine (or lack there off), they have no responsibility to inform the buyer? 

Say they have data that shows a CHT that exceeded redline…and they don’t disclose. Where does that leave them if their client is flying home and a cylinder head separates from the barrel and causes an accident?

[redbaron1982]

The fact that Savvy shared information from one account (the seller) with another of their account (the buyer), without the owner of the data (the seller) authorization is wrong. Big time wrong.

Savvy should provide their pre-buy service based on information made available by the seller to the buyer and add their extensive knowledge to ask the right questions or ask for the right inspections to be performed to get a good idea of how well-maintained the airplane is.

What Savvy did here, most likely without ill intention, is equivalent to a doctor sharing information about one patient with another patient, and I think we all agree that that's wrong.

I don't have an account on PoA or other aviation forums, but I think it would be great to share this knowledge as much as possible, at least for people to discuss the privacy of their information with Savvy.

[Pinecone]

It is a fine line, but the data does not belong to Savvy.  It belongs to the owner.

If the issue is in the logs, then they can and should tell the buyer.  

[redbaron1982]

4 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

So you’re saying that if Savvy is conducting a prebuy service and they have data that is germane to the condition of the engine (or lack there off), they have no responsibility to inform the buyer? 

Say they have data that shows a CHT that exceeded redline…and they don’t disclose. Where does that leave them if their client is flying home and a cylinder head separates from the barrel and causes an accident?

Following this analogy, a doctor should openly discuss with anyone interested in getting into a relationship with a patient of them, if the patient has any STD. If they don't share the information, and then one person gets an STD, is the doctor liable for this?

[Shadrach]

30 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

Following this analogy, a doctor should openly discuss with anyone interested in getting into a relationship with a patient of them, if the patient has any STD. If they don't share the information, and then one person gets an STD, is the doctor liable for this?

We will have to disagree that all information should be held to the same standard as HIPAA, or that that is even a reasonable analogy.
There are two issues at stake here:

1) What is Savvy’s policy and are they adhering to it.

2) What are the implications of having information on hand that in extreme cases might prevent loss of property and life and what is ethical way to handle that information.

I value my privacy a great deal. However, I’m not going to get worked up about protecting aircraft engine data that I knowingly put in the database of a third party. Life is too short.