Recommendations on a pre-Mooney first plane?

[BlueSky247]

Thanks Guys. Dkkim's post led me to the IFR6 people, who just happen to be not far from me. That would be an awesome option to knock that rating out quickly. 

[LevelWing]

10 hours ago, Hank said:

Instruments is an insurance thing. Mooneys are made to travel, and will easily cross weather systems. My checkout required 5 hours actual or simulated IMC, and I only had 62 total hours at purchase. This was intended to keep me alive while traveling VFR, because the actual weather doesn't always match the forecast. 

Training in the plane that you will fly is good. You will know how the plane responds, and will become very familiar with the installed avionics. 

It's interesting how check out requirements for insurance vary from policy to policy. Mine only required a single checkout flight and no requirements for actual or simulated IMC. I don't know that that would be the same today, but that's all that was required when I bought mine.

4 hours ago, bcg said:

I would definitely agree with this.  At least 1/2 the flights I've made since getting my instrument rating in Jan have been at least partially in IMC and would have been impossible without it.  It's a game changer for sure.

I would agree as well. I've had to cancel several flights due to the lack of the rating when all I needed to do was punch through a layer of clouds.

[Schllc]

4 hours ago, BlueSky247 said:

Thanks Guys. Dkkim's post led me to the IFR6 people, who just happen to be not far from me. That would be an awesome option to knock that rating out quickly. 

Don’t be misled, you have to go to the school with about 100 hours of ifr training already. 
you could qualify in less time, it’s just hard to do unless you are in a flight training program. 
I did ifr6 a long time ago, and it was beneficial as a cap on the training, and I have nothing bad to say about the program, but you can’t go there green. 
furthermore, your real learning comes after you get the rating and are flying alone. 
Proficiency is very important.   It’s not something that you want to rush through. 

[BlueSky247]

36 minutes ago, Schllc said:

Don’t be misled, you have to go to the school with about 100 hours of ifr training already. 
you could qualify in less time, it’s just hard to do unless you are in a flight training program. 
I did ifr6 a long time ago, and it was beneficial as a cap on the training, and I have nothing bad to say about the program, but you can’t go there green. 
furthermore, your real learning comes after you get the rating and are flying alone. 
Proficiency is very important.   It’s not something that you want to rush through. 

Ahh. Thanks for the head’s up. I knew I’d have to do some work before, including passing the written. Didn’t know it was that much. I’m certainly not trying to rush. Just hoping to move a little quicker than the roughly five hours a week my current arrangement has been limited to. 

[toto]

4 minutes ago, BlueSky247 said:

Ahh. Thanks for the head’s up. I knew I’d have to do some work before, including passing the written. Didn’t know it was that much. I’m certainly not trying to rush. Just hoping to move a little quicker than the roughly five hours a week my current arrangement has been limited to. 

For whatever it’s worth, I’ve heard good things about GATTS, which requires very little instrument experience before arriving for their seven day course. You have to have passed the written, but that’s about it.

https://www.gatts.org/pilot-training-courses/7-day-ifr-instrument-training.html

[dkkim73]

Might also want to look at PIC (professional instrument courses), with the traveling instructor intensive approach. 

I found their manual very helpful, though I didn't use them for instruction. 

Would definitely recommend lead-turning the ground work, eg do IFR ground school in it's entirety before starting. 

[LANCECASPER]

On 5/16/2024 at 5:05 PM, BlueSky247 said:

I'm tired of lighting money on fire via the school's rental fleet and looking to get a decent IFR-capable bird once I finish the PPL.

You're lighting portraits of Andrew Jackson on fire when you rent. You'll be lighting portraits of Benjamin Franklin on fire when you buy. 

[DCarlton]

If you’re not careful and somewhat lucky with your purchase, your first couple of years of ownership could decay into two years of unplanned maintenance and upgrades that take you away from pursuing your rating.  I made a deal with myself to complete my rating before buying.  Also before you buy an aircraft with a run out engine, check the leads times to complete an engine overhaul.  I haven’t checked lately but I’ll bet it’s six months to a year.  The game has changed significantly the last few years but even in better times it would take months.  

[BlueSky247]

Wow. Lots of options for more intensive ifr training. Thanks guys! I used gold seal for the ppl ground and really liked them. Planning to continue on with their ifr ground school. 

[bcg]

12 hours ago, Schllc said:

 your real learning comes after you get the rating and are flying alone.

I couldn't agree with this statement more, I felt pretty good when I took my check ride but, I had to get configured and slowed below 120 before I hit my IAF to have any hope of staying ahead of the airplane on an approach.  After just a few flights by myself in actual, I'm now at the point that I can stay at cruise until about 5 miles out then slow to VLE, drop the gear, slow to VFE and put flaps in then intercept glide and have it all come together effortlessly.  For me anyway, there's something very different about the learning that happens when I'm all alone and don't have the distractions of an instructor or DPE.

I did some instrument work in IMC during my PPL training so wasn't completely new to it when I started the Instrument training.  My DPE hooked me up with a 33,000 hour retired airline guy for my CFII and we spent 2.5 weeks together (with a break in the middle because of airplane maintenance) doing nothing but training.  I think that total immersion in a short time is a great way to do it, the retention is better when you're using it every day.  I was fortunate that the time of year had a lot of mornings with actual so I didn't have to do it all under the hood.  I personally think that the rating should require at least 5 hours in actual, simulated is OK but, it really doesn't fully prepare you for being in the clouds.

[BlueSky247]

An update. About to solo and called today to get renters insurance and find out about mooney coverage. Avemco said no way on a mooney until I’ve got 100 hours, etc. Reckon I’ll keep renting until I finish the instrument rating. 

[Fly Boomer]

2 hours ago, BlueSky247 said:

An update. About to solo and called today to get renters insurance and find out about mooney coverage. Avemco said no way on a mooney until I’ve got 100 hours, etc. Reckon I’ll keep renting until I finish the instrument rating. 

It's a Catch 22.  You need hours in type to get insurance, but nobody wants to fly without insurance.

[Pinecone]

Remember, time with an instructor will count to those 100 hours.  So they may insure you for dual (with qualified instructor), and you build to your 100 hours and at the same time be banking those Make and Model hours to get a discount on your insurance.

[BlueSky247]

Thanks guys. Gotta admit it's getting frustrating here. Due to wx and scheduling issues, I'm just now a little over 30 hours logged after two months of focused efforts to go at least 3 times a week for a two hour block each time. It's getting to me. Scheduling competition for the two pipers at the school has gotten harder. Yesterday I tried a different tactic and arranged to meet with a new cfi at 7am so I could get some time in before work. Wx looked great, but by the time we got the plane out of the hangar and in the air, a low ceiling had popped up over the departure end of the field and we had to scrub. So, two hours in the car for .5 hours of taxiing and one loop of the field. Tough day. 

 

So I thought about finding another piper archer similar to what the school is using and leasing it to them when I'm done. But the ones I've seen are ludicrously priced for a trainer. The market is just loony right now.

 

 

[dkkim73]

7 hours ago, BlueSky247 said:

Thanks guys. Gotta admit it's getting frustrating here. Due to wx and scheduling issues, I'm just now a little over 30 hours logged after two months of focused efforts to go at least 3 times a week for a two hour block each time. It's getting to me. Scheduling competition for the two pipers at the school has gotten harder. Yesterday I tried a different tactic and arranged to meet with a new cfi at 7am so I could get some time in before work. Wx looked great, but by the time we got the plane out of the hangar and in the air, a low ceiling had popped up over the departure end of the field and we had to scrub. So, two hours in the car for .5 hours of taxiing and one loop of the field. Tough day. 

 

So I thought about finding another piper archer similar to what the school is using and leasing it to them when I'm done. But the ones I've seen are ludicrously priced for a trainer. The market is just loony right now.

 

 

You seem very motivated. That is more hours than many people probably get in juggling training and work. I was the same way and the frequency paid off, so not a criticism, just a voice saying hang in there...

Was the ceiling below minimums or was the CFII hesitant to fly actual? I had a grizzled old Alaska CFII and we flew an ILS to 200' early on. Some schools have crazy high minimums these days. 

[Schllc]

8 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

You seem very motivated. That is more hours than many people probably get in juggling training and work. I was the same way and the frequency paid off, so not a criticism, just a voice saying hang in there...

Was the ceiling below minimums or was the CFII hesitant to fly actual? I had a grizzled old Alaska CFII and we flew an ILS to 200' early on. Some schools have crazy high minimums these days. 

I had the same challenge which was one of the reasons I bought my ovation before I finished my ppl. There were many many cancellations by my instructor, even though other students were flying. I bought my plane and found instructors that would go when I wanted to go!

[BlueSky247]

21 hours ago, dkkim73 said:

Was the ceiling below minimums or was the CFII hesitant to fly actual? I had a grizzled old Alaska CFII and we flew an ILS to 200' early on. Some schools have crazy high minimums these days. 

Thanks! In this case, the actual ceiling was fine. This was just a weird early morning layer that literally appeared out of nowhere. AWOS reported a 7k ceiling and this layer was at around 1300' AGL and moving fast over the field, so the cfi took controls and zipped us back down on the ground pronto. 

[Shadrach]

On 5/16/2024 at 6:10 PM, Hank said:

I went from C-172 to M20-C with 62 hours, five weeks after my PPL. Just get a great Mooney instructor and stay in student pilot mode. Oh, I was 44 years old at the time. Hold on when you get the insurance quote, but 100 hours in type will help, and IR will also help.

I have no idea what to fly "between".

The insurance market has changed. Anybody doing what you did would be looking at at least $6000 to $10,000 their first year just to insure

 

[Max Clark]

On 5/16/2024 at 5:05 PM, BlueSky247 said:

Hey Guys,

Single guy in my 50's here in the SE US working through the PPL in an archer and planning to go straight into IFR. I'll be flying for fun and cross-country trips. Also plan on adding MEL, complex, high performance, etc. down the road.

I'm tired of lighting money on fire via the school's rental fleet and looking to get a decent IFR-capable bird once I finish the PPL.

I've decided on the M20C long term but I know that's too much plane for a new pilot. So I am thinking of something like a musketeer or grumman for the first year while I get the ifr rating, build time for the better insurance rates and search for the right mooney. What planes would you guys recommend that could be kind of a bridge between a trainer and the mooney?

 

Thanks!

 

Knowing what I know now (bought my first plane this month) I would tell you to buy an IFR capable PA-28-180 or 181.

Fly that through 250 hours and your commercial rating before thinking about buying a RG. 

Find a club or FBO with an Arrow that you can get checked out in. Fly that for 25+ hours. Sell the Archer and trade into an Arrow with ratings and time in type. 

100-200 hours RG before you think about moving to another plane, but again figure out how to get 15-25 hours in type before buying.

This will get you the optimal insurance premiums along the way.

When shopping insurance I was told to quote Avemco as a benchmark. They wouldn’t even quote me insurance in an RG with less than 700 PIC, 100 RG, and 25 in type.

Alternatively you can do what I ended up doing. Just suck it up, pay the fortune in insurance year one and try to have 100+ hours in the plane at your renewal. 

Also FWIW having your IRA is worth a 15-20% decrease in the premium. But you’re still going to pay through the nose year one.

Max

Other tips

- Hangar at an airport with long runways and approaches makes a difference

- Be ready with a CFI under 65 with lots of time in your specific make/model

[BlueSky247]

@Max Clark Thank you for those nuggets of info! Much appreciated.

[802flyer]

I think this depends a bit on what you are trying to buy. I bought my well-upgraded F model around 220 total time without any RG experience (but I did have my IR). Avemco insured me in the low $3000s with requirement for 10hrs of transition training, which I did in my own plane after purchase. I flew a bunch in the first few months and got 20% taken off quickly. For me, it didn’t make sense to seek out RG time in any type (arrow or Mooney) before buying.

Perhaps if I were looking to buy an acclaim, it would have been more stringent. I would suggest you reach out to avemco for a general quote on for-sale tail number that roughly matches what you’re looking for before assuming you can/can’t get insured in it. It would have been financially very silly for me to buy an Arrow first, but everyone’s situation is different. And since you haven’t finished PPL yet, the gap to 200+ hours definitely will make a difference, but the extent will only be known if you ask for quotes.


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[Shadrach]

On 6/15/2024 at 6:01 PM, Max Clark said:

When shopping insurance I was told to quote Avemco as a benchmark. They wouldn’t even quote me insurance in an RG with less than 700 PIC, 100 RG, and 25 in type.

Wow…I did not know it had come to that.  I started flying he Mooney about 20years ago. I had 200TT.  IIRC, AIG was was the carrier. They required 5hrs of dual and 10hrs in type before allowing passengers . Premium was about $1000 for 65k hull and standard limits. Seems like everything is taking longer and costing (inflation adjusted) more. 25hrs to solo, 80hrs to PP.

[Z W]

Avemco is insuring me right now with less than 700 PIC.

[SKI]

I bought a J model in December with 350 Hr. TT no RG and no IR. 130K Hull value and my premium was just over $5K for the first year. I'm based at KIDI and the runway there is over 5000'. I'm sure that probably helped a lot. Just giving you some fairly current real world numbers. I knew insurance would be painful year one but that's the price to play. If you want to fly a Mooney you'll just have to suck it up at some point and get year one out of the way.     

[dkkim73]

1 hour ago, Z W said:

Avemco is insuring me right now with less than 700 PIC.

Do you know what their other minimums or criteria were?