starter decision after Sky-tec's big price increase

[mhrivnak]

My J's starter is dead. It's an Aerotech MHB-4016. Here are two options:

$585 for an overhaul exchange with spruce

$1250 to exchange it for a sky-tec 149NL/EC

It sounds like the sky-tec is about 7lbs lighter, turns faster, and people like them a lot. Is it worth paying more than double? My J's useful load is already around 1025lbs, so I'm not exactly clamoring for additional weight savings.

In the next couple of years I'll probably swap my A3B6D with a Lycoming reman A3B6; does a factory reman come with a fresh starter? That would lead me to take the cheaper option right now.

Thanks for any input. Other ideas are welcome, though expedience is a requirement, because I really want the plane back in the air for a trip next weekend.

[philiplane]

As expensive as it is, the 149 NL/EC is the best starter you can buy. Airparts in Fort Lauderdale has 20 of them in stock. $1201. 

 

[jetdriven]

17 minutes ago, philiplane said:

As expensive as it is, the 149 NL/EC is the best starter you can buy. Airparts in Fort Lauderdale has 20 of them in stock. $1201. 

 

The best starter is a MZ4222.  Ours went 1200 hrs. and it was put on the airplane at least 1000 hours before we bought it maybe more.   And it was still going but I had it overhauled while the plane was down 3 months. But so far it’s on its third Engine.
it does have a cranking duty cycle limitation, after 60 minutes you must let it cool for one minute before using it again

Edited April 1 by jetdriven

[PeytonM]

Factory rebuilts (remans) do not come with starter or alternator. I believe new ones do. 

[exM20K]

12 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

after 60 minutes you must let it cool for one minute before using it again

You must have quite a battery :-)

-dan

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, mhrivnak said:

My J's starter is dead. It's an Aerotech MHB-4016. Here are two options:

$585 for an overhaul exchange with spruce

$1250 to exchange it for a sky-tec 149NL/EC

It sounds like the sky-tec is about 7lbs lighter, turns faster, and people like them a lot. Is it worth paying more than double? My J's useful load is already around 1025lbs, so I'm not exactly clamoring for additional weight savings.

In the next couple of years I'll probably swap my A3B6D with a Lycoming reman A3B6; does a factory reman come with a fresh starter? That would lead me to take the cheaper option right now.

Thanks for any input. Other ideas are welcome, though expedience is a requirement, because I really want the plane back in the air for a trip next weekend.

It really depends on the application.

The IO-360 would do fine with the one you have, rebuilt. Personally I'd send it to Aero Accessories in Van Nuys and have them do it. I'd always had better results with mine rebuilt than an overhaul exchange. 

If this was a TIO-540 in a Bravo I'd say go for the 149-NL/EC since it will help a lot with hot starts.

[ArtVandelay]

There’s B&C 315, but it’s a $1000 as well.

[PT20J]

My factory rebuilt came with an alternator but no starter. Check with Air Power -- they are pretty clear about what accessories come with the engine. 

[ArtVandelay]

When they say there’s a core charge, does your return core have to be the same brand/model?

[jetdriven]

6 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

There’s B&C 315, but it’s a $1000 as well.

I’ve heard the BNC will not fit on an M20J. I even called them, they said it hits the fuel servo.

[MB65E]

2 hours ago, jetdriven said:

I’ve heard the BNC will not fit on an M20J. I even called them, they said it hits the fuel servo.

Affirm! It hits on my Io-360-A1A too. 
-Matt

[jetdriven]

Otherwise it’s a Cadillac starter.  All ball bearings and series wound.  The skytec is disposable and that’s ok when they were 365$. But the old MZ will last forever.  It’s only heavier than the Skytec when you dont carry a spare skytec when you melt it down. 

Edited April 1 by jetdriven

[Shadrach]

I installed a Skytec 149NL in 2009. I sent it back to Hartzell in 2018 because it was cranking slow.  They called to let me know that it was fine but that I had somehow been operating with a broken shear pin. I could not understand how this was possible, but traced the shear pin issue to a bad start several years prior due to a malfunctioning ignition switch. They replace the pin and sent it back to me with the spare pin intact. Still going strong after 15 years and >800hrs in service. Maybe some of them are junk, but mine certainly hasn’t been.

[Yetti]

12 hours ago, MB65E said:

Affirm! It hits on my Io-360-A1A too. 
-Matt

Hmmm  I have a B&C on my IO-360 A1A in my model F.

[MB65E]

Strange. Wouldn’t work on mine. I have a very early SN engine and sump. 
Maybe it fits the Avstar fuel servo. I would not fit with my Bendix fuel servo. 
-Matt

[Yetti]

23 hours ago, MB65E said:

Strange. Wouldn’t work on mine. I have a very early SN engine and sump. 
Maybe it fits the Avstar fuel servo. I would not fit with my Bendix fuel servo. 
-Matt

I have an RSA 5 on mine.   I recall it being tight.   The B&C starter was put on a while back wonder if they have changed them

[LANCECASPER]

My experience with SkyTecs over the years is that you’re OK if you over-buy, meaning buy one that is suited for much heavier duty than what they say you need.

Example on a Bravo don’t buy the 149NL, but the 149-NL/EC (Extended Crank). The cheaper ones I was told to use were junk and replaced after a year or two. On a Continental I used to say don’t buy the ST3 buy the ST5, but now I say don’t buy a SkyTec, buy the heavier Energizer starter and be kind to your starter adpater.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

My experience with SkyTecs over the years is that you’re OK if you over-buy, meaning buy one that is suited for much heavier duty than what they say you need.

Example on a Bravo don’t buy the 149NL, but the 149-NL/EC (Extended Crank). The cheaper ones I was told to use were junk and replaced after a year or two. On a Continental I used to say don’t buy the ST3 buy the ST5, but now I say don’t buy a SkyTec, buy the heavier Energizer starter and be kind to your starter adpater.

That’s an interesting observation, but doesn’t really make sense to me logically. I would not assume there to be much of a difference in force required to crank any of these engines. Whether four or six cylinder, the displacements are similar. The four cylinder has 2 compression strokes per rpm and the six has 3. However the Bravo has a modest 7.5 CR compared to the Lycoming’s 8.7. Seems like the differences to the starter would be negligible.

[LANCECASPER]

On 4/3/2024 at 12:08 PM, Shadrach said:

That’s an interesting observation, but doesn’t really make sense to me logically. I would not assume there to be much of a difference in force required to crank any of these engines. Whether four or six cylinder, the displacements are similar. The four cylinder has 2 compression strokes per rpm and the six has 3. However the Bravo has a modest 7.5 CR compared to the Lycoming’s 8.7. Seems like the differences to the starter would be negligible.

The difference is in how long and how fast it will crank, attempting a hot start on a Bravo, without damage to the starter or the ring gear. The Bravo, more than any other Mooney I’ve owned, even if the timing is right, needs to crank fast and awhile after being parked an hour after a shutdown in a Texas summer. It also makes you thankful for two batteries just in case.

Having had three of them, it makes a lot of sense to me logically since I replaced the smaller cheaper ones and never had the EC model fail on me. Also I had one of the smaller ones kick back and chip one of the 149 teeth on the ring, which was expensive.

[mhrivnak]

On 4/1/2024 at 1:06 AM, ArtVandelay said:

When they say there’s a core charge, does your return core have to be the same brand/model?

The Skytec policy says:

3. Cores must be of like purchase, a directly superseded unit or replaced unit when installing an STC'd product.
4. Competitive product cores are acceptable returns.

[mhrivnak]

I went with an overhauled Aerotech. The Skytec sounds nice, but I couldn't justify paying more than double.

Thanks for the input and discussion.

[firelog1101]

How would this compare to an electronic ignition like Surefly? I have heard the startups with those are 1-2 blade turns even when hot. If you're looking for a better startup that may be a better direction to look?

[LANCECASPER]

4 minutes ago, firelog1101 said:

How would this compare to an electronic ignition like Surefly? I have heard the startups with those are 1-2 blade turns even when hot. If you're looking for a better startup that may be a better direction to look?

You still need a starter if you have electronic ignition. 

[mhrivnak]

9 minutes ago, firelog1101 said:

How would this compare to an electronic ignition like Surefly? I have heard the startups with those are 1-2 blade turns even when hot. If you're looking for a better startup that may be a better direction to look?

I think your points here, which I agree with, are:

• An engine with electronic ignition is very easy to start. That makes it less relevant to compare which starter might be better at starting. For example, one spins faster or is stronger than another. That just isn't of much value if you have electronic ignition.
• If you are considering spending money on improving the quality and reliability of starts, you may be better off investing in electronic ignition instead of a starter upgrade.

I'm anticipating an engine overhaul in the near future, which will come back with electronic ignition. That definitely factored into my decision to not spend more money right now on getting a better starter.

[firelog1101]

18 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

You still need a starter if you have electronic ignition. 

Sorry I should've clarified why buy a more expensive Skytec starter vs the cheaper exchange and get an electronic ignition?