Pinecone Posted January 13 Report Posted January 13 1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said: The cost of vehicles in general, body shop labor and replacement parts have gone up a lot in the past few years. Also the increased costs and time for all the fancy nanny sensors. And the shops need special equipment to calibrate and activate those sensors. 2 Quote
AIREMATT Posted January 13 Report Posted January 13 8 minutes ago, Pinecone said: Also the increased costs and time for all the fancy nanny sensors. And the shops need special equipment to calibrate and activate those sensors. And you can’t opt out of most of those nanny sensors even if you want to… Quote
Fly Boomer Posted January 13 Report Posted January 13 5 hours ago, LANCECASPER said: The cost of vehicles in general, body shop labor and replacement parts have gone up a lot in the past few years. Apparently the Tesla (maybe all electric cars?) is super expensive to repair any kind of body damage for some reason. Although it seems like that would only drive up insurance cost for those that own them. Quote
Echo Posted January 13 Report Posted January 13 17 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said: Apparently the Tesla (maybe all electric cars?) is super expensive to repair any kind of body damage for some reason. Although it seems like that would only drive up insurance cost for those that own them. Yes. If battery pack is compromised the car will likely be totaled. The cost for insurance on electric vehicles is substantial. Quote
MikeOH Posted January 13 Report Posted January 13 22 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said: Apparently the Tesla (maybe all electric cars?) is super expensive to repair any kind of body damage for some reason. Although it seems like that would only drive up insurance cost for those that own them. I'm afraid the cynic in me suspects that due to mandates/desires to move to EVs that insurance companies are spreading EV repair costs across all vehicle premiums. I'm not saying that EV owners don't pay more but I'd bet it's being subsidized by the rest of us with ICE vehicles Quote
PT20J Posted January 13 Report Posted January 13 10 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said: Apparently the Tesla (maybe all electric cars?) is super expensive to repair any kind of body damage for some reason. Although it seems like that would only drive up insurance cost for those that own them. I asked a body shop owner why they replaced panels instead of repairing them so often. He told me that in order to reduce weight for better fuel economy, many manufacturers have gone to thinner panels and heat treating them for stiffness which makes them difficult to work out dents and bondo. During Covid, a lot of insurance companies reduced rates (mine did) because people weren't driving as much and claims were down. Now that people are driving again, and running into each other, claims are up and the companies are raising their rates. We forget the reductions and complain about the increases. That just seems to be human nature. Insurance companies can be profitable even if claims = premiums because the premiums are collected before the claims are paid and during that time the money is like an interest-free loan that, if properly invested, can provide a good return. Warren Buffett calls the free money "float" and it is the engine behind Berkshire Hathaway. In a competitive market, insurance companies are incentivized to keep premiums as low as possible in order to write as much business as possible because the float is so valuable. I think the proper way to think about insurance is to remember that it is just a form of risk management. It is best to identify risks, and then determine if they are substantial enough to worry about. There are four traditional forms of risk management: Accept, Avoid, Transfer, Mitigate. Purchasing insurance is the classic example of transferring a financial risk to another party. But you can just accept (sometimes called self insuring), or sell the airplane (avoid) or take recurrent training, and keep the airplane well maintained in an effort to mitigate. Or, a combination. Everyone's circumstances are different and what is the best strategy for one may not be the best for another. 2 Quote
A64Pilot Posted January 13 Report Posted January 13 55 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said: Apparently the Tesla (maybe all electric cars?) is super expensive to repair any kind of body damage for some reason. Although it seems like that would only drive up insurance cost for those that own them. Again another myth. Unfortunately ours got hail damage this Summer and had a lot of repair work as in hood and several panels replaced. According to the body shop Tesla parts are dirt cheap but they charge a higher labor rate due to the “special” training in involved, it washes out. I think the special training is likely BS but who knows. They do charge a higher labor rate on a Tesla. Before buying ours I had heard that insurance for one was stupid expensive for the reason you said, so I had USAA quote me a Model 3, a BMW 3 series and an Audi A4 I think it was as those are very comparable cars. I didn't want to get stung with more expensive insurance. The Tesla was a little cheaper than the BMW and Audi but not by enough to be real significant. If you google is Tesla insurance more expensive you will find many hits saying it is due to high repair costs but it’s not my experience. Tesla won’t sell parts to any body shop though they have the be Tesla certified, I think though so does BMW as the shop that repaired our was also BMW certified. Quote
MikeOH Posted January 13 Report Posted January 13 5 minutes ago, PT20J said: During Covid, a lot of insurance companies reduced rates (mine did) because people weren't driving as much and claims were down. Now that people are driving again, and running into each other, claims are up and the companies are raising their rates. We forget the reductions and complain about the increases. That just seems to be human nature. Insurance companies can be profitable even if claims = premiums because the premiums are collected before the claims are paid and during that time the money is like an interest-free loan that, if properly invested, can provide a good return. While I don't disagree with your 'human nature' comment, my experience is that in a down claim market we are lucky if the premium just remains flat! I know my car insurance went UP every year (no claims or tickets) during COVID; not as much, but still. My last aircraft premium went down...by like $10. Doesn't exactly make up for the 20% hikes over the past several years! And to your second point, exactly, until a huge loss occurs (737 Max) they are making big money on the invested premiums. Quote
A64Pilot Posted January 13 Report Posted January 13 27 minutes ago, Echo said: Yes. If battery pack is compromised the car will likely be totaled. The cost for insurance on electric vehicles is substantial. Your right but if the pack is busted most likely the frame etc is too, and the car totaled excepting some unusual circumstance like I don’t know a manhole cover flipping up and getting the pack. The newer Tesla’s are supposedly going to make the pack a structural member, meaning I think it likely it would be even more expensive to replace Call your insurance company and get a quote, but don’t compare it against a much less expensive car as that’s not apples to apples. 1 Quote
A64Pilot Posted January 13 Report Posted January 13 11 minutes ago, PT20J said: I asked a body shop owner why they replaced panels instead of repairing them so often. He told me that in order to reduce weight for better fuel economy, many manufacturers have gone to thinner panels and heat treating them for stiffness which makes them difficult to work out dents and bondo. During Covid, a lot of insurance companies reduced rates (mine did) because people weren't driving as much and claims were down. Now that people are driving again, and running into each other, claims are up and the companies are raising their rates. We forget the reductions and complain about the increases. That just seems to be human nature. Insurance companies can be profitable even if claims = premiums because the premiums are collected before the claims are paid and during that time the money is like an interest-free loan that, if properly invested, can provide a good return. Warren Buffett calls the free money "float" and it is the engine behind Berkshire Hathaway. In a competitive market, insurance companies are incentivized to keep premiums as low as possible in order to write as much business as possible because the float is so valuable. I think the proper way to think about insurance is to remember that it is just a form of risk management. It is best to identify risks, and then determine if they are substantial enough to worry about. There are four traditional forms of risk management: Accept, Avoid, Transfer, Mitigate. Purchasing insurance is the classic example of transferring a financial risk to another party. But you can just accept (sometimes called self insuring), or sell the airplane (avoid) or take recurrent training, and keep the airplane well maintained in an effort to mitigate. Or, a combination. Everyone's circumstances are different and what is the best strategy for one may not be the best for another. The guy who did my estimate on the hail damage repair said they have an algorithm, x number of dents per panel and they replace the panel, Tesla apparently sells the panels cheap so instead of fixing them they replaced I think all of the ones damaged on our car which was most of the car. Insurance company will of course go the cheapest way to fix the car Quote
MikeOH Posted January 13 Report Posted January 13 Well, for those that haven't drunk all the Kool-Aid here are a few articles that you might find interesting: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/yourmoney/cars/article-12951939/hertz-sell-fleet-tesla.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYRilEdf5A8 https://www.motor1.com/news/701656/buick-us-dealer-network-almost-halved/ Hey, if YOU WANT an EV, knock yourself out. It seems to me that, given the above, people are starting to revolt against being coerced (or, forced in California in 2035) to buy EV; including car dealers! Quote
Fly Boomer Posted January 13 Report Posted January 13 42 minutes ago, PT20J said: Everyone's circumstances are different and what is the best strategy for one may not be the best for another. Great summary of insurance in general -- not just airplanes. Quote
Echo Posted January 13 Report Posted January 13 Looking forward to Hybrid Landcruiser in ‘24. Toyota will be getting some $ out of me. “Just right “ in my Goldilocks world… Quote
Fly Boomer Posted January 13 Report Posted January 13 9 minutes ago, Echo said: Looking forward to Hybrid Landcruiser in ‘24. Toyota will be getting some $ out of me. “Just right “ in my Goldilocks world… It's a good choice for many. Full electric sales are still steady, but not as high as the manufacturers would like. Hybrid sales on the other hand are booming -- especially in households that have no electrics of either kind (hybrid or all electric). 1 Quote
Echo Posted January 13 Report Posted January 13 Just now, Fly Boomer said: It's a good choice for many. All electric sales are still steady, but not as high as the manufacturers would like. Hybrid sales on the other hand are booming -- especially in households that have no electrics of either kind (hybrid or all electric). Toyota has been making hybrids for decades. Like the smaller Prada based’Cruiser. Good power AND fuel economy. Will be a forever vehicle… Quote
Schllc Posted January 13 Report Posted January 13 54 minutes ago, PT20J said: During Covid, a lot of insurance companies reduced rates Auto insurance is actually one of the insurance markets that operates as close to functionally as possible. I believe the size and standardization of the market, and the ability to analyze the data with great accuracy creates intense competition which keeps rates affordable. It is also the one insurance required by law, that I would keep even if it was not required. Even the health insurance market has been destroyed by government intervention, and to avoid this being political, I do not blame either side more for this, they are all feckless morons who never address the unintended consequences of the “help, they provide us… Example, According to the census, there are approximately 8,500,000, households in Florida. Assume an average home insurance of 4,000 per year(which I can promise is a low estimate) which totals $34,000,000,000. with an average of one major hurricane ever 7 years yields $238,000,000,000 in premium collected over this period, which doesn’t include premiums for flood, umbrella or other special policies. For hurricane Ian they estimated $28,000,000,000 in damages, and remember this is everything, public buildings, roads, cars etc. It also doesn’t mean that is what insurance paid, think about all the denied or depreciated claims, as well as the deductibles. Flood insurance caps at $250,000 so if you lose a $5,000,000 home to a flood you get paid $250k. Period! How does this equate to these crazy increase in premiums? I saw 100% increase, on my house, and almost 300% on my commercial building. Property and life insurance are the big rackets, the ones like aviation are just too small a market to function properly. I will only be required to have liability by the airport, and when I retire and my assets are all properly protected, my insurance costs are going to drop dramatically, because I will not pay for any insurance that I don’t have to have! Anyone who thinks insurance premiums are only predicated on statistical data alone is naive. If the law forces you to obtain insurance, the market will exploit this to the fullest extent possible. (now my rant is really over) 1 Quote
LANCECASPER Posted January 14 Report Posted January 14 6 hours ago, MikeOH said: I know my car insurance went UP every year (no claims or tickets) during COVID; not as much, but still. Wow, what company were you with? https://www.businessinsider.com/personal-finance/car-insurance-refunds-discounts-during-coronavirus-2020-4 Quote
MikeOH Posted January 14 Report Posted January 14 5 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said: Wow, what company were you with? https://www.businessinsider.com/personal-finance/car-insurance-refunds-discounts-during-coronavirus-2020-4 What can I say, I suspect being in California has a lot to do with it! As long as I'm ranting about insurance...every time I try to shop all my policies (auto, homeowners, landlord, umbrella) none will quote me unless I tell them what I'm already paying! Gee, think I'm going to get the best price? Quote
PT20J Posted January 14 Report Posted January 14 42 minutes ago, MikeOH said: What can I say, I suspect being in California has a lot to do with it! As long as I'm ranting about insurance...every time I try to shop all my policies (auto, homeowners, landlord, umbrella) none will quote me unless I tell them what I'm already paying! Gee, think I'm going to get the best price? Don’t know what to tell you. I lived in California for 40 years and never had that experience. My insurance rates were actually lower in California than Washington state. Quote
hoot777 Posted January 14 Report Posted January 14 I use Travers Agency near St a Louis. The carrier is Global and I am very pleased. They could not have handled my claim any better. First class people with excellent service. Quote
A64Pilot Posted January 14 Report Posted January 14 19 hours ago, MikeOH said: Well, for those that haven't drunk all the Kool-Aid here are a few articles that you might find interesting: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/yourmoney/cars/article-12951939/hertz-sell-fleet-tesla.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYRilEdf5A8 https://www.motor1.com/news/701656/buick-us-dealer-network-almost-halved/ Hey, if YOU WANT an EV, knock yourself out. It seems to me that, given the above, people are starting to revolt against being coerced (or, forced in California in 2035) to buy EV; including car dealers! EV sales are down. I don’t think Tesla, but he has significantly reduced the price to keep sales up. He’s a business man, if he could get more he would, so he’s reducing prices to keep sales up. Elon thinks it’s people can’t afford new expensive Auto’s and they way forward for EV’s is to make them at least as cheap or cheaper than ICE to buy. Cost of ownership is already there. I tell you what I think is going on because I saw it when we had a Prius, gas prices go down and Prius prices were low and the lots were full of them, three row SUV and Pickup trucks were priced at a premium. Gas prices go up and SUV and Pickup sales went down and the little Prius sold well. People didn’t really want the Prius, they had rather have the Luxury SUV, but when gas was high they didn’t want to ay the price, so they bought a Prius because what they wanted cost too much to drive. So why are gas prices low now? Because we are pumping more crude per day in the US than anytime in history, which drives gas prices down, and as our economy is hugely affected by energy costs interest rates and inflation go down, cheap energy is good for the economy and expensive energy bad for it, and fossil is the source for the majority of energy. I like the technology of the Tesla, love the autopilot etc., but in truth that could be put into a gas car just as easily, most of the technology can, not all maybe but most. But what sold me on a Tesla is the $8.50 cost for a full tank, same reason we bought the Prius. Back years ago I can remember having to reset the fuel pump when filling up my Diesel pickup, because the pump would stop at $150. I believe depending on the results of this next election those time are likely coming again, yet my EV will still cost $8.50 for a “full tank” Quote
A64Pilot Posted January 14 Report Posted January 14 21 hours ago, MikeOH said: including car dealers! The car dealers are leading the charge against EV’s most will tell you not to buy, many if you want a test drive will tell you they don’t have one charged etc. Why is this? If you have any dealer friends ask them how much they make from their service dept, many will tell you that its the profit center, that they make good money in servicing. Problem is there is very little if any servicing for an EV, no oil changes, transmission servicing, brakes last hundreds of thousands of miles etc. Sure there is some warranty work, but warranty work pays poorly. EV’s still have shocks and tires etc but from a complexity perspective they are simple things, no emission controls. fuel systems transmissions etc. So if a dealer sells a gas car often he has a service customer, if he sells an EV he won’t usually see that car again except for warranty. That wipes out his service profits. There is a HUGE reason for the whole industry not to switch to EV’s in the short term, only reason they were headed that way was promises of Government subsidies etc. The Japanese are fighting against EV’s in Japan, to switch would just about wipe out their economy as most parts manufacturing goes away and must switch to other things and they don’t want the pain switching would bring, so they are playing the hydrogen game which has been a successful delaying tactic for the last 20 years. Quote
PT20J Posted January 14 Report Posted January 14 Hmm. Less servicing seems bad for the dealer and good for the owner. All change is disruptive. This benefits some to the detriment of others. The buggy manufactures and horse breeders weren’t too keen on automobiles. People naturally resist change, especially as we get older. That’s why we need the younger generations — to embrace progress. Maybe they can solve the fundamental problem that we live on a planet with finite resources, yet we breed like rabbits, have developed an economic system that depends on continued exponential growth and have never figured out a truly workable political system. 1 Quote
Fly Boomer Posted January 14 Report Posted January 14 13 minutes ago, PT20J said: People naturally resist change, especially as we get older. And then there are older pilots. Quote
A64Pilot Posted January 14 Report Posted January 14 Change is inevitable we have to increase efficiency by whatever means, if we don’t we are going to go broke or be driving tiny little economy boxes that can’t get out of their own way. Fuel cost over time isn’t going to do anything but become more expensive. At some point Solar etc will become cheaper than fossil, that’s when it will make sense An EV isn’t “better” because it’s electric, that honestly is I think not the issue, it’s “better” because it can be as much as 95% efficient where as ICE is I guess in the 20’s? A Hybrid is the answer for many, not as efficient as an EV, but can be twice as efficient as straight ICE. Toyota has hybrids figured out, not many have. The downside to a Hybrid is they are very complex machines, a complete ICE vehicle AND a complete EV with all the complexities of both, but Toyota at least can handle that as their Hybrids have excellent track records. Used to be the Prius was the only Toyota that you could buy in the US that was built in Japan, I hate to say it but that might have something to do with their reliability. By the way what is this “Kool Aid”? Insurance in Fl is a mess and I think is largely due to the lawsuits being brought against insurance companies in fl Nearly 80 percent of all homeowners insurance lawsuits filed in the U.S. over claims derive from Florida, but the state accounts for only 9 percent of claims that insurers pay out. https://therealdeal.com/miami/2023/07/26/more-sticker-shock-ahead-as-floridas-property-insurance-crisis-worsens/# Quote
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