Panel Planning with G3X...what would you do differently?

[KSMooniac]

I keep deferring a panel upgrade from my original steam gauges, dual GNS, and STEC-30 + GPSS setup.  Also have PS Engr PMA-450A, JPI EDM-900, and GTX-330ES currently.  It is of course adequate, but most of us dream of newer/better/brighter.  I keep waffling on my upgrade path and have considered soldiering on as-is, an Aspen or perhaps two, Avidyne IFD box upgrade, Dynon Skyview HDX (not until autopilot is available!), and G3X + GFC-500.

I'm a Mooney owner, so by definition frugal.    I try to DIY/work-share as much as possible because it is my hobby, it is fun (usually) and it saves me money (usually).  Some avionics paths allow someone like me to really be involved, while others do not.  For that reason, the Skyview system has been very appealing to me, but the autopilot delay has been a sore spot, even though I'm not ready to launch a project right now.  I think the ongoing database costs for a Skyview system would be substantially cheaper than the Garmin systems.  

Lately I've been considering the Garmin path, but one that is streamlined a bit from many of the full-boat splashy panels I see going into a lot of planes today.  We've got a hangar + home build coming soon unless something big happens, so I don't want to put half-a-hangar money into my panel.  So, I've started dreaming of a modest G3X panel and am looking for feedback from those that have already been down the road and have some experience with the new stuff, as well as those still on the fence like me.

Today's version in my head would be a 7" G3X portrait display setup as PFD like a single Aspen unit, backed-up by a G5 or GI275.  I will absolutely keep my JPI EDM-900 no matter what, so I do not want Garmin's EIS.  I think even if I did not have the -900 now, I would still choose that over Garmin's system as I think it is that much better.  Garmin's integration and auto-magic cloud uploads and such are "neat" but not useful or value-added for my case.  YMMV.  I would turn my GNS-530W and 430W into a GTN-750xi and a GNC 255 nav/com.  I currently have two GI-106A CDI's, so I would retain one for a nav/com CDI, or perhaps add a second G5 or GI275 for that use and pickup more functionality/redundancy.  I'll keep the PMA-450A audio panel b/c it is the best available (or eventually get a B or C model!).  I could be convinced to trade the GTX-330ES for a newer remote model (GTX 345R) to use through the GTN 750, but I will not consider a remote audio panel.  

I haven't started to play with an arrangement/layout, but I'm sure there is plenty of room in my early J panel (short panel, no center hump) to fit everything in nicely, so I don't need input on that at this point.  My goals are to keep what I currently have and really like, keep the budget under some control, and reduce ongoing database costs by avoiding panel-mount charts and such as I'm happy with Foreflight or Garmin Pilot on an iPad mini, especially with ADS-B overlaid.  

Has anyone installed a single 7" G3X display?  I don't believe I've seen any here yet.  Anyone think the 10" is overkill and regret it?  I doubt I would hate it, but keeping my EDM on the left side with a 10" G3X would be a challenge.  I think sharing screen space between the 7" and a GTN 750 would be a nice balance, but perhaps I'm not considering some other important factor?  I think this gets me fully modernized, plenty of capability and redundancy, and hopefully doesn't break the bank.  

Thanks in advance!  

[toto]

40 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

I keep deferring a panel upgrade from my original steam gauges, dual GNS, and STEC-30 + GPSS setup.  Also have PS Engr PMA-450A, JPI EDM-900, and GTX-330ES currently.  It is of course adequate, but most of us dream of newer/better/brighter.  I keep waffling on my upgrade path and have considered soldiering on as-is, an Aspen or perhaps two, Avidyne IFD box upgrade, Dynon Skyview HDX (not until autopilot is available!), and G3X + GFC-500.

I'm a Mooney owner, so by definition frugal.    I try to DIY/work-share as much as possible because it is my hobby, it is fun (usually) and it saves me money (usually).  Some avionics paths allow someone like me to really be involved, while others do not.  For that reason, the Skyview system has been very appealing to me, but the autopilot delay has been a sore spot, even though I'm not ready to launch a project right now.  I think the ongoing database costs for a Skyview system would be substantially cheaper than the Garmin systems.  

Lately I've been considering the Garmin path, but one that is streamlined a bit from many of the full-boat splashy panels I see going into a lot of planes today.  We've got a hangar + home build coming soon unless something big happens, so I don't want to put half-a-hangar money into my panel.  So, I've started dreaming of a modest G3X panel and am looking for feedback from those that have already been down the road and have some experience with the new stuff, as well as those still on the fence like me.

Today's version in my head would be a 7" G3X portrait display setup as PFD like a single Aspen unit, backed-up by a G5 or GI275.  I will absolutely keep my JPI EDM-900 no matter what, so I do not want Garmin's EIS.  I think even if I did not have the -900 now, I would still choose that over Garmin's system as I think it is that much better.  Garmin's integration and auto-magic cloud uploads and such are "neat" but not useful or value-added for my case.  YMMV.  I would turn my GNS-530W and 430W into a GTN-750xi and a GNC 255 nav/com.  I currently have two GI-106A CDI's, so I would retain one for a nav/com CDI, or perhaps add a second G5 or GI275 for that use and pickup more functionality/redundancy.  I'll keep the PMA-450A audio panel b/c it is the best available (or eventually get a B or C model!).  I could be convinced to trade the GTX-330ES for a newer remote model (GTX 345R) to use through the GTN 750, but I will not consider a remote audio panel.  

I haven't started to play with an arrangement/layout, but I'm sure there is plenty of room in my early J panel (short panel, no center hump) to fit everything in nicely, so I don't need input on that at this point.  My goals are to keep what I currently have and really like, keep the budget under some control, and reduce ongoing database costs by avoiding panel-mount charts and such as I'm happy with Foreflight or Garmin Pilot on an iPad mini, especially with ADS-B overlaid.  

Has anyone installed a single 7" G3X display?  I don't believe I've seen any here yet.  Anyone think the 10" is overkill and regret it?  I doubt I would hate it, but keeping my EDM on the left side with a 10" G3X would be a challenge.  I think sharing screen space between the 7" and a GTN 750 would be a nice balance, but perhaps I'm not considering some other important factor?  I think this gets me fully modernized, plenty of capability and redundancy, and hopefully doesn't break the bank.  

Thanks in advance!  

 

@PJClark was able to fit a G3X with a JPI next to it.  It's a little bit tight but it looks beautiful.

 

 

[ArtVandelay]

I see no reason to go with the 7” as a single primary display. Same money for installation as the 10”.

I saved money and panel space by going with the GTN 650 and adding a Aera 660.

I buy the onepak DB package to get updates for the Aera, GTN, and G3X.

[KSMooniac]

It's been a while since I shopped the database packages but none of the Garmin bundles were a savings for me with dual GNS and old 496 that I still use... they actually exclude it from their bundles!  I'll have to go research again and see what decisions actually drive the recurring costs.  I'm pretty sure I don't want to go with 2 IFR GPS boxes anymore...that is just frankly overkill in this era, so long as I have a nav/com backup and a portable option.

I forgot about PJC's panel, so thanks for the reminder!  I even saved pics on my phone of it primarily because of his JPI integration.

I guess a more direct question for the 10" G3X users, how do you typically use all of the real estate?  just a really big horizon, split-screen with a map or plate, EIS (which I won't use), fake 6-pack instruments?  I am susceptible to getting up-sold from my current baseline!

[hubcap]

12 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

I guess a more direct question for the 10" G3X users, how do you typically use all of the real estate?  just a really big horizon, split-screen with a map or plate, EIS (which I won't use), fake 6-pack instruments?  I am susceptible to getting up-sold from my current baseline!

I only have about 50 hours on my G3x’s. I have (2) 10” G3x’s. The way I currently utilize the displays depends on which phase of flight I am in at the time. During ground operations I have the pilot display showing the PFD on the left side and the engine instrumentation for on the right. On the right hand display I have the safe taxi information. When flying cross country I have the PFD and map on the MFD with the weather map on the right hand display. When in the airport area I keep the big traffic map on the right hand display. 
 

There are probably more efficient methods, but this is where I am at presently. I am trying to get away from using an IPad in the cockpit. Presently I am only using it for approach plates. I can display the approach plates on the G3x but it is easier for me to read on the IPad. 

[laytonl]

Here is my 7” G3X.  I like the setup.  Next up is an EDM-930 to eliminate the legacy gauges.   Lee

[laytonl]

Sorry about the skinny legs in the photo.  Shouldn’t have to see that.  Lee

[Steve Dawson]

Scott, personally I like having as much information in front of me especially when flying IFR so I've been planing on installing either the G500Txi or G3X 10" depending on my autopilot future decisions. Currently I have an Aspen pro 1000 max and even though I like the Aspen it's hard on the eyes looking for details and so I use the GTN 750 and an Area 760 for additional information. I've self imposed a budget so further avionic plans are curtailed until the coffers are back to spending mode. 

Nice panel Lee, Did you have to keep the ASI and the Altitude Indicator to have the 7" G3X with the G5 installed? 

[ArtVandelay]

I always use split mode, I arrange it so the flight panel would be centered on the yoke.
I wanted the G3X as high as possible to minimize head movement.
I also arrange it so everything I commonly interact with is in easy reach of my right hand.



P.S. Unlike Lee, I did crop out my legs. :-)

[Pinecone]

IMO, you would be OK with the 7" and the 750 for the map.

Or, as was mentioned a 10" and a 650.

The advantage to the 10" now is, you can do the 750 later and have the best of both worlds.

[KSMooniac]

Tom, your panel is really close to where I'm headed, aside from the 10" vs 7" debate.  One of my personal requirements is the EDM-900 on the left side, which of course is not your requirement or preference.  Alternatively, I could perhaps be comfortable with it in the main avionics stack, about where your Aera (?) is.  Can you walk me through your design process that led you to this layout?  Is your Aera hardwired for flight plan sync, and what do you use it for?  I still use a hardwired 496 on the copilot yoke for backup, but primarily for satellite wx that keeps getting pushed even after I terminated my subscription.    Did you consider a remote transponder?  I will definitely keep the PMA 450 like you, and could see trading 7" + GTN 750 for 10" + 650 if I can meet all of my other goals. 

I would love to end up with enough free real estate on the right side for a flexible docking or mounting solution that could be useful for my trusty 496, an iPad, an Aera, or perhaps a little glove box.

[Baker Avionics]

16 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I always use split mode, I arrange it so the flight panel would be centered on the yoke.
I wanted the G3X as high as possible to minimize head movement.
I also arrange it so everything I commonly interact with is in easy reach of my right hand.



P.S. Unlike Lee, I did crop out my legs. :-)

Not trying to pick your panel apart, but I believe you are missing the RAD Light to be in accordance with the STC of the JPI you have installed.  Just an FYI.  The panel looks amazing, however!!!!

[KSMooniac]

Greg, I thought the same thing initially, but found it right beside his G3X on the right, above the compass.  I don't remember the exact requirements of the STC in terms of location, but I suspect it is fine there.  I put mine on the upper left of my pilot side panel, and my EDM is on the lower right, above the throttle.

 

[ArtVandelay]

Not trying to pick your panel apart, but I believe you are missing the RAD Light to be in accordance with the STC of the JPI you have installed.  Just an FYI.  The panel looks amazing, however!!!!

It’s labeled “engine” under the landing gear lever along with other annunciation lights.

[laytonl]

On 8/23/2023 at 10:09 PM, Steve Dawson said:

Scott, personally I like having as much information in front of me especially when flying IFR so I've been planing on installing either the G500Txi or G3X 10" depending on my autopilot future decisions. Currently I have an Aspen pro 1000 max and even though I like the Aspen it's hard on the eyes looking for details and so I use the GTN 750 and an Area 760 for additional information. I've self imposed a budget so further avionic plans are curtailed until the coffers are back to spending mode. 

Nice panel Lee, Did you have to keep the ASI and the Altitude Indicator to have the 7" G3X with the G5 installed? 

I just kept the ASI and AI as backups.  Probably overkill.  Lee

[Greg Ellis]

On 8/24/2023 at 4:59 PM, Baker Avionics said:

Not trying to pick your panel apart, but I believe you are missing the RAD Light to be in accordance with the STC of the JPI you have installed.  Just an FYI.  The panel looks amazing, however!!!!

Is that light required if the EDM 900 is installed on the pilot's side of the panel?  Or is it only required when the EDM 900 is installed on the co-pilots side away from direct line of sight?  Mine is still installed even though they moved the EDM 900 from the co-pilot to the pilot's side so I was just curious.  Thanks.

[hubcap]

It sounds like you are committed to the JPI. I had the JPI 900 prior to my upgrade and had no complaints, it’s a great product in my opinion. I chose to go with the Garmin EIS due to limited real estate on the panel, and have no regrets.

One thing you may want to consider is an IBB (integrated battery backup). We added one during Myrtle’s upgrade. About 2AMU and you have an hour and half or so on the G3x and radio in the event of alternator failure. 

[mhrivnak]

2 hours ago, Greg Ellis said:

Is that light required if the EDM 900 is installed on the pilot's side of the panel?  Or is it only required when the EDM 900 is installed on the co-pilots side away from direct line of sight?  Mine is still installed even though they moved the EDM 900 from the co-pilot to the pilot's side so I was just curious.  Thanks.

The light is "required for primary installation" according to the install manual. It doesn't matter where the main display is.

[mhrivnak]

Here is my setup. The 10" adds a lot of value, so I would highly recommend it.

• Flying an approach, having the geo-referenced plate on the display minimizes the need to look anywhere else during your scan. It's a very nice experience.
• In busy airspace (especially around Airventure recently!), I'll put the traffic view on the right side of the display so passengers can help visually identify targets.
• The map and chart views are helpful. I especially like the descent planning; it shows where you'll be when you reach your target altitude given your current rate of descent.
• While I still like using foreflight, I appreciate that I can fly without a tablet at all and use the G3X Touch for charts, plates, ads-b in, etc.
• Pulling up weather and notams through the G3X Touch is nice and easy. I find it more convenient than looking it up through foreflight.
• Controlling a GNC 255 through the touch display is very convenient.

As for layout, I like having the EDM 900 and backup G5 close to each other and in a central location. If things go bad and the PFD fails in adverse conditions, I like that my scan is now focused on these two instruments in one fairly central spot. They're also both visible from the right seat without too much trouble.

[KSMooniac]

That looks great, and very close to what I would likely go for with a 10" G3X.  I *think* I want to upgrade from GNS-era to GTN-era if I make the leap... do you have any regrets with the 530 in your stack?  Would you think a 10" G3X + GTN 650 (maybe Xi) would be an upgrade from the 530, or would you still want a big screen GTN 750?

I don't have the hump in my glareshield, so I could not duplicate that stack exactly.  I would take the G3X, JPI and G5 exactly as you have them, and would want GPS/NAV/COM #1, audio panel, and GFC 500 in the main avionics rack as you have them.  I do not have the annunciator panel like yours...just the older 4 lights that I could rearrange above a G3X.  Part of the 750 vs 650 debate for me would include a remote transponder that might de-clutter the right side a bit too.

[mhrivnak]

I did this upgrade 2.5 years ago. If I was doing it today, I'd go with a GTN unit rather than keep my 530W.

One of the "hidden gem" features of the G3X Touch is that it enables you to do bluetooth flight plan transfer with GNS units, very similarly to if you had a Flightstream 210 installed. So now I input flight plans (and reroutes) on foreflight, then send it to the panel. No more endless knob-twisting, which helps extend the usability of the GNS units.

Given that, the 530W is very easy to use and lets me fly every approach or route that I could fly with a brand-new GTN.

But we're significantly closer now to the end of life for GNS units. And when you think about the used resale value of GNS units, now might be a good time to get that value out; at some point they'll inevitably become less sought after.

I'll likely end up with a GTN 650Xi before long. Talking with Garmin and some dealers about the difference for my panel between a 650 and 750, it almost exclusively comes down to just a bigger screen. If you're interested in a remote transponder, remote audio panel, etc. then the 750 gets more interesting. Classically, people like that the 750 can display approach plates, but I'd rather have those on the G3X Touch anyway. As nice as the 750 looks, for me I don't think I can justify the huge increased cost. And when I ask Garmin and dealers "please sell me on the 750", they mostly shrug and say that for my panel, the 650 is the right option unless I just want more screen real estate.

If I could do it again, I'd get rid of the original annunciator panel and replace it with just a few dedicated lights light you're describing. Most of the lights on my annunciator panel are no longer relevant.

[KSMooniac]

Another question on redundancy in this new era... if #2 is a NAV/COM box, do you have redundancy to display the nav CDI on a G5 or GI-275 if the G3X main screen quits?  Today I have dual GNS and dual GI-106A indicators so I can show any combo of GPS and VOR/ILS between the two of them.  I'm wondering if I should retain a mechanical CDI, even if it has to live over on the right side...not optimal but would do in a pinch.

[mhrivnak]

21 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Another question on redundancy in this new era... if #2 is a NAV/COM box, do you have redundancy to display the nav CDI on a G5 or GI-275 if the G3X main screen quits?  Today I have dual GNS and dual GI-106A indicators so I can show any combo of GPS and VOR/ILS between the two of them.  I'm wondering if I should retain a mechanical CDI, even if it has to live over on the right side...not optimal but would do in a pinch.

These are typically configured so the G3X Touch can display any/all of your nav sources. And if it fails, the G5 is the backup and can likewise display the same.

[ArtVandelay]

I did this upgrade 2.5 years ago. If I was doing it today, I'd go with a GTN unit rather than keep my 530W.
One of the "hidden gem" features of the G3X Touch is that it enables you to do bluetooth flight plan transfer with GNS units, very similarly to if you had a Flightstream 210 installed.
I'll likely end up with a GTN 650Xi before long.

No it doesn’t, at least not for me. This works with old GTN I guess, but the new Xi doesn’t seem to support this.

[Pinecone]

6 hours ago, hubcap said:

One thing you may want to consider is an IBB (integrated battery backup). We added one during Myrtle’s upgrade. About 2AMU and you have an hour and half or so on the G3x and radio in the event of alternator failure. 

Which one did you install? @hubcap