Anyone here do night touch and goes at KSMF?

[M20 Ogler]

I’m working on my commercial certificate and need 10 night landings at a field with an operating control tower. The only one near me open that late is Sacramento International. Ha anyone here done this recently? How did it go? 

[Hank]

Night flight? Yes.

Touch n goes? Sure.

Touch n goes at night? THAT U haven't tried.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

[M20 Ogler]

It seems like a strange requirement. Commercial Pilot candidates need 5 hours solo at night and 10 takeoff and landing at a towered field at night. Not sure if they have to be full stop landings like they do for night currency to carry pax. 

[jrwilson]

You could use Mather also

[Ragsf15e]

Everything is usually less busy at night and you’re using a long runway.  I’d probably just take my time and do stop and goes… I guess I do that so they “count” toward currency.

Meaning, come to a complete stop, go through appropriate checklists on the runway to reconfigure (if required), then takeoff again.  Not taxi back.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Ragsf15e

[M20 Ogler]

35 minutes ago, jrwilson said:

You could use Mather also

I Didn’t think of that. They must get a lot of late night freight in there. ForeFlight says the tower at KMHR is open till 2330 on weekdays 

[kortopates]

It seems like a strange requirement. Commercial Pilot candidates need 5 hours solo at night and 10 takeoff and landing at a towered field at night. Not sure if they have to be full stop landings like they do for night currency to carry pax. 

T & G’s at night don’t count for night currency nor Private nor commercial certs. Got to at least do stop and goes or taxi back.
Have fun, it should make you much more in command of your aircraft for doing it!


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[McMooney]

Just fly right as it turns night for the next couple weeks, too hot to fly during the day anyway

[201Mooniac]

Another choice is SJC

[wombat]

53 minutes ago, kortopates said:

T & G’s at night don’t count for night currency nor Private nor commercial certs. Got to at least do stop and goes or taxi back.
Have fun, it should make you much more in command of your aircraft for doing it!


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Do you have a source you could share that spells out the requirement for the commercial cert night towered landings to be full stop?

61.109(a)(2)(ii) is very clear about the private pilot night takeoffs and landings needing to be full stop. it says "10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.".      So no just out doing them in the desert or great salt flats either!

But 61.129(a)(4)(ii) only says "5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower"

 

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/61.109

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/61.129

 

[RLCarter]

Regs doesn’t spell out to a full stop for the 10 on the commercial, I did mine to a FULL stop and logged it that way, got my night currency and no issues for the commercial side

[MooneyMitch]

T&G's................oh my!!!!

[Utah20Gflyer]

So here is a related question but also a little bit of a diversion.  
 

If you had a nice long runway available and you touched down and then took off again twice instead of once could you count that as two T&Gs?  If no then please explain why?  Does the definition of a T&G require completing a pattern or obtaining a certain altitude?  I am not counting a bounced landing but normal flare and land, reconfigure, power up, climb normally, power back and land normally again.  
 

I know this is a bit of a stupid question and not something I would try in real life.  it’s more for refining my understanding of the definition of a touch and go.  

[Hank]

13 minutes ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

So here is a related question but also a little bit of a diversion.  
 

If you had a nice long runway available and you touched down and then took off again twice instead of once could you count that as two T&Gs?  If no then please explain why?  Does the definition of a T&G require completing a pattern or obtaining a certain altitude?  I am not counting a bounced landing but normal flare and land, reconfigure, power up, climb normally, power back and land normally again.  
 

I know this is a bit of a stupid question and not something I would try in real life.  it’s more for refining my understanding of the definition of a touch and go.  

Good idea, but the regs quoted above specify "with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern" so this won't work. It also won't work,  for the same reason, for Private Pilot cert. Can't say about night currency, I know they specify "landings to a full stop." I normally roll tonthe end of the runway, turn around and take off again--two landings one way, one the other, since winds are usually calm an hour after sunset.

[kortopates]

2 hours ago, wombat said:

Do you have a source you could share that spells out the requirement for the commercial cert night towered landings to be full stop?

61.109(a)(2)(ii) is very clear about the private pilot night takeoffs and landings needing to be full stop. it says "10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.".      So no just out doing them in the desert or great salt flats either!

But 61.129(a)(4)(ii) only says "5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower"

 

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/61.109

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/61.129

 

Although 61.129 doesn't spell it out, one of the DPEs I work with said they had to meet the same requirements for night currency.

Because its not spelled out I can certainly imagine that may not be  unanimous decision by all DPE's and I haven't come across a LOI or AOPA legal suggesting otherwise (if you do please share). So maybe the better answer is check with your DPE or recommending CFI.  But I didn't think it was significant issue or a hardship to pursue further. But then again all of the training I do is in Mooney's and Bonanza's and I won't do touch and goes in either - nor does MAPA and BBP; but will do stop and goes on a longer runway.

[Hank]

43 minutes ago, kortopates said:

 . . . all of the training I do is in Mooney's and Bonanza's and I won't do touch and goes in either - nor does MAPA and BBP; but will do stop and goes on a longer runway.

I don't understand. A Touch n Go uses much less runway than a Stop n Go--I don't need to slow from 50-55 down to 0, and I only accelerate from 50-55 back to 70 rather than starting again at 0.

 

[kortopates]

10 minutes ago, Hank said:

I don't understand. A Touch n Go uses much less runway than a Stop n Go--I don't need to slow from 50-55 down to 0, and I only accelerate from 50-55 back to 70 rather than starting again at 0.

 

In a training environment the goal isn't to do as many takeoff and landings in as short a time as possible but to train normal, soft, max perf/short field, x-wind takeoff/landings all done to ACS standards, as well as Go arounds/balked landing, flapless landings, soft+simul high DA takeoff etc.  

[Jetrn]

there are plenty of towered airports in the bay area; oakland, stockton, napa, hayward, san carlos, palo alto. Some open later than others. This time of year oakland would be your best bet and quick 25 minute flight from Sacramento area. I live in vacaville and my plane is based in rio vista. Would be happy to fly along if your looking for a safety pilot.

[wombat]

On 7/27/2023 at 5:32 PM, kortopates said:

In a training environment the goal isn't to do as many takeoff and landings in as short a time as possible but to train normal, soft, max perf/short field, x-wind takeoff/landings all done to ACS standards, as well as Go arounds/balked landing, flapless landings, soft+simul high DA takeoff etc.  

In theory this is true but many students are constrained by time and budget and doing T&Gs is faster than S&Gs.   Sure, more training is always 'better', but at some point you have to say 'enough is enough' and that the student (or just any pilot) is good enough as they are.   The FAA provides a minimum standard for this in the regulations.   You can have personal minimums as a pilot and/or instructor that are higher.    As an instructor I let my students know when they meet or fail to meet the FAA standards and I provide advice on the list of actions I think they can take to gain the most safety, happiness, or likelihood of passing a checkride for the lowest investment, but once they meet the standards, it's their decision.  This is just the way *I* operate though.

 

Some students are on the fine line between quitting because they can't afford the time or money for the training, and completing their training and getting their license.    I personally like to promote general aviation and try to minimize the hurdles students and pilots have to overcome to become and continue to be safe and happy pilots. 

 

The difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is no difference between theory and practice....