Aircraft Post-Purchase Advice

[jrod_stat]

Hello,

I'm looking for some advice on how I should proceed after the unfortunate series of events that followed my purchase of a Mooney M20F. Below is the history of the purchase.

-Purchased a/c unseen in early February. Seller provided all logs and the annual was just completed in late January by the seller. Pre-buy was completed by another mechanic with only minor discrepancies which the seller remedied. Before completing the purchase I discussed with the seller that it would likely be several weeks before I could come pick it up, he agreed to keep it in his hangar only pushing it out temporarily if he needed the space.

-I gave the seller plenty of notice that I would be retrieving the plane with a friend on 4/8 to cross county back home to Minnesota (roughly 4 hours of flight time). Seller notified me two days before the scheduled pickup that he would not be present when I arrived as he was out of town. Since all accommodations were already purchase for the trip I decided to continue with the pickup without the seller being there.

- During the preflight I did not strain the right tank as it was empty so the seller could reseal it. I did get a small amount of water out of the left wing. There was about 1.5 ounces total and there was no water present after 2 strains. My copilot and I discussed and concluded this was condensation that had settled and we were comfortable continuing. We fueled up and departed. 

-On departure we experienced an issue with comms. The pilot side push to talk button was constantly transmitting and the right side mic/speaker jack on the panel was inop. There was a second input jack for the right seat on the tower just behind the flap lever that served as the primary input. The seller did not mention any of this and this took us several minutes in air to figure out. We continued by transmitting using the selector switch on the audio panel switching from internal to comm1/comm2.

-The plane performed well on the first leg and we made our fuel stop with no other issues. After fueling we noticed the motor was running rough and decided to return to the ramp to confirm the issue. I did not take a fuel sample after fueling at our stop (please beat me up in the replies, I've always been told taking a sample after fueling isn't necessary because any water in the fuel would be mixed and would take several hours to settle). We visually inspected fuel lines, etc. and then decided to take a fuel sample... I pulled almost a quart of water out of the left tank, but the right tank was clean. We confirmed the water did not come from the supply at the fuel stop by sampling fuel from a plane that had fueled that same day and returned to the airfield.

-While inspecting the engine compartment I found a 3/8" craftsman wrench between cylinders 1 & 3. This has nothing to do with the fuel issue, but makes me even more leery of the seller.

- We spent the rest of the day shaking the wings and waiting for any additional water to settle before taking more samples. We decided to stay over night and see what the fuel looked like the next morning. Fuel looked good the following morning so we decided to taxi around and do a run up. Engine was running better than the day before, but still not quite right. We decided to pull the plugs and inspect, luckily a mechanic was available and willing to help. All but one bottom plug had serious carbon buildup, leading me to believe the plugs were not cleaned at the annual. Top plugs were not too bad. The plane had less than 5 hours on it since the annual, including our 1st leg. I'm not sure if having water in the fuel would foul the plugs this bad, but I'm sure it did not help the situation.

-After the plugs were cleaned we started up and taxied for a bit. Plane was operating normally, we discussed and decided to depart after holding over the field for several minutes. Plane ran flawlessly on the hour flight home. Very stressful one hour.

-We concluded that the plane was left out in the rain and water gotten in the tank through the cap and was stuck upstream of the sump drain in front of a keel rib and had agitated down to the low point during our first leg. This is the only explanation I could come up with and we are very fortunate to not have an engine failure enroute.

With all that said, I'm not sure if I should reach out to the seller and at least discuss these items and my concerns about his truthfulness. I did call during our trip to ask questions while we were troubleshooting. If it was in fact left out during heavy rain storms, why would the seller not communicate that? I feel that would have made me more diligent with the fuel sampling. Should I write a report on this forum and name the seller so other Mooney buyers have this knowledge before purchasing a plane from the same seller? 

 

  

 

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, jrod_stat said:

Hello,

I'm looking for some advice on how I should proceed after the unfortunate series of events that followed my purchase of a Mooney M20F. Below is the history of the purchase.

-Purchased a/c unseen in early February. Seller provided all logs and the annual was just completed in late January by the seller. Pre-buy was completed by another mechanic with only minor discrepancies which the seller remedied. Before completing the purchase I discussed with the seller that it would likely be several weeks before I could come pick it up, he agreed to keep it in his hangar only pushing it out temporarily if he needed the space.

-I gave the seller plenty of notice that I would be retrieving the plane with a friend on 4/8 to cross county back home to Minnesota (roughly 4 hours of flight time). Seller notified me two days before the scheduled pickup that he would not be present when I arrived as he was out of town. Since all accommodations were already purchase for the trip I decided to continue with the pickup without the seller being there.

- During the preflight I did not strain the right tank as it was empty so the seller could reseal it. I did get a small amount of water out of the left wing. There was about 1.5 ounces total and there was no water present after 2 strains. My copilot and I discussed and concluded this was condensation that had settled and we were comfortable continuing. We fueled up and departed. 

-On departure we experienced an issue with comms. The pilot side push to talk button was constantly transmitting and the right side mic/speaker jack on the panel was inop. There was a second input jack for the right seat on the tower just behind the flap lever that served as the primary input. The seller did not mention any of this and this took us several minutes in air to figure out. We continued by transmitting using the selector switch on the audio panel switching from internal to comm1/comm2.

-The plane performed well on the first leg and we made our fuel stop with no other issues. After fueling we noticed the motor was running rough and decided to return to the ramp to confirm the issue. I did not take a fuel sample after fueling at our stop (please beat me up in the replies, I've always been told taking a sample after fueling isn't necessary because any water in the fuel would be mixed and would take several hours to settle). We visually inspected fuel lines, etc. and then decided to take a fuel sample... I pulled almost a quart of water out of the left tank, but the right tank was clean. We confirmed the water did not come from the supply at the fuel stop by sampling fuel from a plane that had fueled that same day and returned to the airfield.

-While inspecting the engine compartment I found a 3/8" craftsman wrench between cylinders 1 & 3. This has nothing to do with the fuel issue, but makes me even more leery of the seller.

- We spent the rest of the day shaking the wings and waiting for any additional water to settle before taking more samples. We decided to stay over night and see what the fuel looked like the next morning. Fuel looked good the following morning so we decided to taxi around and do a run up. Engine was running better than the day before, but still not quite right. We decided to pull the plugs and inspect, luckily a mechanic was available and willing to help. All but one bottom plug had serious carbon buildup, leading me to believe the plugs were not cleaned at the annual. Top plugs were not too bad. The plane had less than 5 hours on it since the annual, including our 1st leg. I'm not sure if having water in the fuel would foul the plugs this bad, but I'm sure it did not help the situation.

-After the plugs were cleaned we started up and taxied for a bit. Plane was operating normally, we discussed and decided to depart after holding over the field for several minutes. Plane ran flawlessly on the hour flight home. Very stressful one hour.

-We concluded that the plane was left out in the rain and water gotten in the tank through the cap and was stuck upstream of the sump drain in front of a keel rib and had agitated down to the low point during our first leg. This is the only explanation I could come up with and we are very fortunate to not have an engine failure enroute.

With all that said, I'm not sure if I should reach out to the seller and at least discuss these items and my concerns about his truthfulness. I did call during our trip to ask questions while we were troubleshooting. If it was in fact left out during heavy rain storms, why would the seller not communicate that? I feel that would have made me more diligent with the fuel sampling. Should I write a report on this forum and name the seller so other Mooney buyers have this knowledge before purchasing a plane from the same seller? 

 

This is taking away from what should be a great experience - buying an airplane. It will fade and things will get worked out.

While all of these things sound disturbing, and without getting into all of the details,  this is not something you want to hear, and I'm sure you know this, but in everything you buy: "Buyer Beware".

In airplanes, since they have many ways to kill you, multiply that by 10.

Factor in what it would cost to go look at an airplane in person before you do a pre-buy. If that cost seems high, think about what you went through on the way home and what you will have to do to remedy a squawk list that has only started. While I understand that doesn't help now, what it does do is seer that in your mind - never to let it happen again.

How do I know this? The second airplane I ever bought 34 years ago was very similar. It came with a "fresh annual". What I have come to appreciate about that phrase is that "fresh" only applies to the ink in the logbook.

I flew in commercially to take delivery and fly it home on a Sunday. I too made it home, but my squawk list was around 20 items, not including the birds nests I found in the engine compartment and throughout the airplane once I got home. I called him the next day at his office since he was a dealer and calmly went through the items and pointed out that the annual was obviously never done, except in the logbooks. I put the ball in his court and asked him how he wanted to handle it, should I count on him to make this right or would I be better off talking to the FAA first? I'm not sure this would happen today but after our conversation, with me acknowledging before he could that I fully understood that things are usually bought as-is, but in this case . . . .,   he offered to fix all of the items on the list if I would bring it back to him and he would give me a Cessna 172XP to fly for a couple weeks while they got everything handled and that he would pay for my fuel both ways. I doubt that you will receive the same treatment but calling and having a calm but very concerned conversation with the word "FAA" in there a couple times, may at least get you some help. It never hurts to ask. The good news is that it turned out to be a good airplane after working through the issues. 

Anytime someone gets agitated and angry on the phone they have lost control. Keeping your cool and stating your case gives you the advantage, no matter how he tries to handle it. What it really taught me is that in the future I would always look before I leaped and make sure I get a good in-person first impression of the airplane and the seller on one I'm seriously considering making an offer on and doing a pre-buy on. Over the years on subsequent searches I have made 3-4 trips that were a waste of time and money but small in comparison to the money I would have spent if I would have mistakenly bought any of those. All education carries with it tuition. You have just paid for a great deal of valuable education.

Regarding writing up a report with his name on here, I would at least give him a chance to do the right thing first. 

[KSMooniac]

Unless you have some sort of agreement and/or warranty in writing, I doubt you'll ever get any relief.  After seeing the pencil-whipped annual, would you trust him to remedy anything honestly?  After hearing of the water in the tank, I'd be wary of whatever "sealing" was done in the tanks...there is a SB or AD on sealing the drain holes in the ribs, that prevent water from flowing down to the sump until you things get shaken in flight.  You might have that situation!  

Be glad you didn't have an incident.  I'd chalk it up to an educational experience, and those are rarely free.  If the plane is otherwise good, then I'd re-do the annual and complete all of the items they missed besides servicing spark plugs.  I bet they didn't lubricate anything either, for starters.  I'd also thoroughly check for corrosion first, as that is the biggest potential pitfall.  If you find it un-airworthy, then perhaps you'll have a legal claim to make against the seller and IA.

[Shadrach]

In the whole scheme of things, these are annoyances more than real expenses.  Seller may be a man of dubious integrity...or he may be a man whose personal life is in chaos and is struggling to conduct himself as he should. Either way, let him fade into a distant memory and focus on making the plane correct. You've got a capable bird there of a good vintage. Enjoy it!

[Fly Boomer]

3 hours ago, jrod_stat said:

I'm looking for some advice on how I should proceed after the unfortunate series of events that followed my purchase of a Mooney M20F

To paraphrase @LANCECASPER above:  Don't burn the barn down and then piss on the ashes during your first interaction with the seller.

[LANCECASPER]

8 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

To paraphrase @LANCECASPER above:  Don't burn the barn down and then piss on the ashes during your first interaction with the seller.

Wow in one sentence you paraphrased my novel . . lol

Don't ask me what time it is - I may tell you how to build a watch

[carusoam]

Jrod,

You are just joking, right? 

1) You bought a plane built several decades ago…

2) From a guy several hours away…

3) With a common challenge that often appears between annual inspections…

4) And a big issue of a known unusable fuel tank on one side…

5) You didn’t think to trade dough for keys in person was important…?  A few minutes walking around the lane with the old owner is worth a ton…  building a small relationship with that guy so he takes your next phone call is brilliant….

6) believed in not sumping a tank because you just filled it…. (This is just il-advised beyond anything else you will ever do.)

7) Thought flying a plane with only one tank available was a good idea… and didn’t take extra precautions to make sure it truly worked right.

8) Any fuel issues…first step, switch tanks… now what?

9) Know that leaky fuel caps are a common challenge… fixed at annual.  Fixed forever with modern O-rings…

10) Are your O-rings black, or blue?

11) it is time to stop looking at the riddled past… and start looking forward to the future…

You have plenty of work to do for yourself… get on it!  
 

12) Have you ever heard of transition training?

13) Why did you not seek actual training from somebody with qualified Mooney experience for this first flight home?

14) Is this a case of you didn’t know what you didn’t know?

 

15) Now, you are fully annoyed by me…

I welcome you to hang out and discuss all the things you want to learn…

16) I wrote a page yesterday about sumping tanks and how much water can get by the fuel cap in a single rainstorm…

If you didn’t see it… who are you going to sue?

17) When you gain a few years of experience… you will recognize when it is time to sue… and when it is too expensive to expect getting anything that way… 

If you ever bought a new device that is covered by warranty, or a used device that is covered by some consumer protection… there is a procedure for that… that may involve a lawyer…  we have a few lawyers around here.

Pre-flown airplanes don’t usually have consumer protection associated with them…

Don’t go it alone…

Go MS!

PP thoughts only, not a lawyer… but, I have bought many used machines before… using due diligence.

You had a second brain in your plane… what was that brain saying?

Best regards,

-a-

 

Chances are high Jrod didn’t get past line three of my post… if he did, he will do alright in time…

If he didn’t… he is bound to fall for the next trap laid out by this less than perfect plane…

 

How did I do Jrod?

[Bolter]

4 hours ago, jrod_stat said:

-Purchased a/c unseen in early February. Seller provided all logs and the annual was just completed in late January by the seller. Pre-buy was completed by another mechanic with only minor discrepancies which the seller remedied.

How did you identify a mechanic for the pre-buy?  Was it someone the seller referred, or you found independently?  I would expect that spark plug removal (and therefore inspection) would be part of the pre-buy.  What was reported there?  

It was not clear to me, but did you fill the right tank before departing?  I understand why it was dry when you got there, for tank patching.

[jrod_stat]

@LANCECASPER Thank you for the reply and providing your similar experience. I do want to give the seller a chance to make good on things and would like for him and I to have a cordial conversation about it. Thanks again for the feedback.

[jrod_stat]

@Bolter I found the pre-buy mechanic. I had a few conversations with him before proceeding. He wasn't located at the same field so the seller offered to fly the plane to him for the pre-buy. Pre-buy did indicate occasional miss at low idle which seller wanted to investigate himself. Seller stated he found a fouled plug and cleaned/reinstalled. We didn't notice any abnormalities during taxi and runup. 

Right tank was filled before departing airfield where the plane was picked up. Does not appear to be leaking now.

Regardless of what evolves between me and the seller, I will have a local mechanic complete another annual and confirm crank runout is within limits.

[jrod_stat]

13 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Either way, let him fade into a distant memory and focus on making the plane correct.

Great advice. Thanks for the feedback.

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, jrod_stat said:

@LANCECASPER Thank you for the reply and providing your similar experience. I do want to give the seller a chance to make good on things and would like for him and I to have a cordial conversation about it. Thanks again for the feedback.

Where in Minnesota are you?

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, jrod_stat said:

@LANCECASPER Thank you for the reply and providing your similar experience. I do want to give the seller a chance to make good on things and would like for him and I to have a cordial conversation about it. Thanks again for the feedback.

If you become a “hands on” owner it will be interesting to see if your view on this situation changes when looking back in a few years.  I agree that the seller not presenting the plane personally is a lousy way of doing business.  Not defending the seller, but what is cleaning spark plugs, sumping a tank and dealing with a shorted radio jack really worth? What are you expecting him to do? These are all preflight items and they are trivial to remedy. It’d be like buying a used car sight unseen and then asking the seller for restitution because the cabin air filter was dirty and the windshield wipers chattered on the drive home. Get on with your life man.

[Echo]

@carusoam  I know you are the dean here but man, look up harsh in the dictionary....No, check that, ask Alexis or Siri.  Re-read and look in the mirror.  He was looking for perspective not a slap in the face.

[Echo]

That said, I get your points.  More about tone.  Relateable to rudeness thread and humans.  We often give what we get.  Tact is something I am learning/working on.  I like Shads perspective here.  He cut the tension and gave perspective.  The guy is a new owner and learning.  Is it not you that seeks to foster learning and camaraderie?

Edited April 12, 2023 by Echo
spelling

[carusoam]

27 minutes ago, Echo said:

@carusoam  I know you are the dean here but man, look up harsh in the dictionary....No, check that, ask Alexis or Siri.  Re-read and look in the mirror.  He was looking for perspective not a slap in the face.

I know I owe at least two apologies for yesterdays posts…  @jrod_stat and @Someguy

Two new guys came aboard and I lost the balance of sharing knowledge and maintaining control at the same time…

 

I’m still learning this skill called writing…

And getting better at it every day.

 

I still have a ways to go…

Thanks for pointing out this error…

It helps me with getting it more right the next time…

Best regards,

-a-

[Utah20Gflyer]

Sounds like a frustrating start to airplane ownership.  I think many of us have gone through this experience of the realities of airplane ownership being rudely foisted upon us.  Airplane ownership is a lot of work and comes with risk and uncertainty.  The first couple years in particular are A LOT of effort if the plane wasn’t diligently cared for by the previous owner.  Doesn’t sound like this plane was.  If you decide you like ownership and stick with it in a couple years your plane will be squared away and you can start really enjoying it.   
 

Personally I started with a squawk list a half page long which grew to a full page.  I got all that fixed and created another whole page of squawks,  currently my list is back to a half page of things most people wouldn’t even care about.  My plane is very functional and enjoyable to fly and it just keeps getting better over time.  Plane ownership required diligence, just keep at it. 

[toto]

On 4/11/2023 at 2:32 PM, jrod_stat said:

I did not take a fuel sample after fueling at our stop (please beat me up in the replies, I've always been told taking a sample after fueling isn't necessary because any water in the fuel would be mixed and would take several hours to settle).

Taking a fuel sample is important not just to look for the presence of water, but also to verify that the fuel is of the correct type and free of other contaminants. It’s pretty cheap insurance. 

[carusoam]

+1 for sumping the tanks after filling…

A few Mooneys have received Jet A by accident…

Jet A has a tendency to kill the piston crowns about the time you have reached traffic pattern altitude…  pre-ignition…

Fortunately the reddish color and strong diesel smell is helpful in identifying the mistake… 

 

Turbo owners have removed decals that say ‘turbo’ on it….  It sometimes confuses the line people that there is a turbine / jet under the cowling…

Best regards,

-a-

[midlifeflyer]

On 4/11/2023 at 3:32 PM, jrod_stat said:

With all that said, I'm not sure if I should reach out to the seller and at least discuss these items and my concerns about his truthfulness. I did call during our trip to ask questions while we were troubleshooting. If it was in fact left out during heavy rain storms, why would the seller not communicate that? I feel that would have made me more diligent with the fuel sampling. Should I write a report on this forum and name the seller so other Mooney buyers have this knowledge before purchasing a plane from the same seller? 

Well you sure got an earful on stuff you shoulda done both before buying and before flying... and I agree with others there is no excuse for not sampling fuel. 

I don't see much harm in reaching out to discuss. Challenging their honesty is not likely to get a friendly response, but if it makes you feel good to yell at them... Public bad-mouthing? Definitely not while you are pissed off.

 I suspect that under your contract, and even without anything other than a bill of sale in writing, this an "as is" sale. There are a few exceptions to "as is" in some states, particularly if the seller is in the biz, but you'd want to consult with a lawyer to see if anything can or is worth doing. I've been in a few of these (on both sides) and they are no fun for the client (on either side).

[LANCECASPER]

20 hours ago, Echo said:

@carusoam  I know you are the dean here but man, look up harsh in the dictionary....No, check that, ask Alexis or Siri.  Re-read and look in the mirror.  He was looking for perspective not a slap in the face.

Speaking of harsh @Echo . . lol . .  easy man. You're criticizing him for what you are doing here. We all do this from time to time depending on what mood a post finds us in. It's something I can work on also.

[thinwing]

7 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Speaking of harsh @Echo . . lol . .  easy man. You're criticizing him for what you are doing here. We all do this from time to time depending on what mood a post finds us in. It's something I can work on also.

it is the internet afterall....asking advice after admitting doing something dumb or at least indicating possible poor operating technique is bound to get a direct opinion.But at least he got a mea culpa from our dean...at my saturday hangar coffee /bs clatch...he would have been told what for and possible yelled at by experienced,older,crotchity guys sitting in front of him in person!

[Schllc]

One other consideration when you are contemplating how to handle a situation like this,  is the relative standards many people have. 
some people just don’t pay attention to things the way others do. 
ever try to explain to someone what your steak last night tasted like?

you are in a zero leverage position. 
maybe assume the best, and have a candid and kind conversation about your findings and see how he reacts. 
One thing is for sure, how he will handle this is predetermined by who he is, your method of asking is only going to bring it about sooner or later. 
I do agree that in the grand scheme of things, these issues are relatively minor and will pass and any angst you feel is only affecting you, so just put it behind you and enjoy your Mooney. 

[Mac80]

My situation when I first got my what I believe was a poor overhaul that left out new cam followers. I never went back just forward.
 

I feel I was taken severe advantage of again during an annual. They did couple pages of fix it things that I don’t believe any where airworthiness. My bad for trusting a place I did business with more than a decade ago. I will never go back. Hopefully you have couple of places with a good help maintaining the plane. 
 

Only 2 bad experiences in nearly 20 years is pretty darn good.  Good luck.