USB-A is dead. Long Live USB-A

[ArtVandelay]

  On 4/5/2023 at 7:09 PM, rbp said:

so for your 91.205 clock,you use a plug a clock radio in to your panel? :)’
 
i’ll repeat the point for all the naysayers out there — things you want to plug into your airplane — phones, tablets, gopro, stratus, etc — are all going to be USB-C by the end of the year.  this has nothing to do with clock radios, keyboards, mice, etc that you might be using at home

May be C on the device end, but the other end plug into our panels will probably be A for a very long time.

[PT20J]

  On 4/5/2023 at 7:09 PM, rbp said:

so for your 91.205 clock,you use a plug a clock radio in to your panel? :):):)’

 

i’ll repeat the point for all the naysayers out there — things you want to plug into your airplane — phones, tablets, gopro, stratus, etc — are all going to be USB-C by the end of the year.  this has nothing to do with clock radios, keyboards, mice, etc that you might be using at home

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I think you missed my point. If I have a USB-C device and a charging port that is USB-A, I simply get a cable with a USB-A connector on one end and a USB-C on the other.

[rbp]

  On 4/5/2023 at 7:43 PM, PT20J said:

I think you missed my point. If I have a USB-C device and a charging port that is USB-A, I simply get a cable with a USB-A connector on one end and a USB-C on the other.

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And you will not get fast charging for your phone tablet or computer using that cable

[rbp]

  On 4/5/2023 at 7:21 PM, ArtVandelay said:

May be C on the device end, but the other end plug into our panels will probably be A for a very long time.

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Yes, if  someone  decides to put -A in  a new  panel, which I am suggesting, is shortsighted. I’ve never suggested that anybody rip out the existing –A 

[EricJ]

  On 4/6/2023 at 1:00 AM, rbp said:

And you will not get fast charging for your phone tablet or computer using that cable

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All of my smart fast chargers, that came with the devices from the factory, use a USB-A to USB-C or USB-A to USB-mini cable.    The cable shouldn't limit that.

[rbp]

  On 4/6/2023 at 4:04 AM, EricJ said:

All of my smart fast chargers, that came with the devices from the factory, use a USB-A to USB-C or USB-A to USB-mini cable.    The cable shouldn't limit that.

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fast charging requires support in all three participants: charger, thing being charged, and cable. 

by specification, USB-A can carry max 5V and 500mA. USB-A to Lightening supports up to 2.4A (mostly for iPads). This will not give you fast charging, regardless of what came "in the box" with your device

USB-C supports "USB Power Delivery" which is not just a wire specification, but also the ability to negotiate up to 240W of power at various voltages, which is why MacBook and Dell laptops power supplies use USB-C

here's an example of a TSOd USB power supply that supports Power Delivery over USB-C

https://truebluepowerusa.com/products/aviation/usb-charging-ports/ta360/

[rbp]

USB-C charging is also bi-directional and daisy-chained. So you can charge your phone from your tablet or laptop (no need for a battery bank), and you can  *simultaneously* charge your phone off your laptop USB port while the laptop is being charged (without impeding charging the laptop).

[EricJ]

  On 4/6/2023 at 12:27 PM, rbp said:

fast charging requires support in all three participants: charger, thing being charged, and cable. 

by specification, USB-A can carry max 5V and 500mA. USB-A to Lightening supports up to 2.4A (mostly for iPads). This will not give you fast charging, regardless of what came "in the box" with your device

USB-C supports "USB Power Delivery" which is not just a wire specification, but also the ability to negotiate up to 240W of power at various voltages, which is why MacBook and Dell laptops power supplies use USB-C

here's an example of a TSOd USB power supply that supports Power Delivery over USB-C

https://truebluepowerusa.com/products/aviation/usb-charging-ports/ta360/

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Don't mistake standard spec limitations with matched branded equipment.   Also, USB 3.0.

[rbp]

  On 4/6/2023 at 3:35 PM, EricJ said:

Don't mistake standard spec limitations with matched branded equipment.   Also, USB 3.0

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I didn't -- that's why I pointed out USB-A to Lightening for iPad. 

but your point is irrelevant because the USB-A power port in your plane will never be 'matched branded equipment' to whatever cockamamie device you're talking about 

and its also irrelevant because this post is about answering  the question "what type of USB ports should I put in my new panel?"  nobody is making USB 3.0 ports and nobody is putting out high power USB-A equipment anymore. 

[rbp]

and you can always have one of these in your flight bag for That One Odd device, while still enjoying all the benefits of USB-C

[PT20J]

It's not that USB-C is not an improvement over USB-A; it is. And, for new installations it makes sense to go with the latest technology. But, at least for me, it's really irrelevant. I put a USB-A charging port in my airplane on the passenger side just because I had space and for the unlikely event that a passenger might want to use it. I was going to put in a USB-C, but the Garmin product was backordered and I didn't care enough to look for another source. The PMA 450B audio panel includes a USB-C port, so now I have power no matter which cable my passenger has handy. Several years ago I had a MCI True Blue USB-A power cube installed behind the panel and ran a power cord under the yoke to my yoke-mounted iPad. It will charge the iPad and keep it at 100% for an entire flight at max brightness. If I ever need to replace it, I'd get a USB-C version, but the USB-A puts out enough power for what I need.

Skip

[carusoam]

Speaking of iPad cords…

Two just came out of my plane with their white outer layer crumbling off…

Both had lightning ends on them, so they aren’t left over from the ipad1 days….

 

Do you all have a preferred source, or length of this next link in the USB chain?

Best regards,

-a-

[EricJ]

  On 4/6/2023 at 4:12 PM, rbp said:

I didn't -- that's why I pointed out USB-A to Lightening for iPad. 

but your point is irrelevant because the USB-A power port in your plane will never be 'matched branded equipment' to whatever cockamamie device you're talking about 

and its also irrelevant because this post is about answering  the question "what type of USB ports should I put in my new panel?"  nobody is making USB 3.0 ports and nobody is putting out high power USB-A equipment anymore. 

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I think the practical point is just that USB-A will be around for a long time to support the variety of equipment that will remain as legacy devices that can be accomodated with adapter cables.   And charging isn't and hasn't ever been limited to the min (not max as you indicated) supply current of 0.5A in USB-A.   This is also evidenced by the 15W (although usually 12W in practice) capability you quoted for USB-A.    That's enough to support operation of most devices in-cabin although it won't, as you correctly point out, provide all of the capabilities that are possible through the USB-C spec, but neither will most USB-C ports.   Not all USB-C ports have all of the USB-C capabilities.   Many are comparable to implemented USB-A ports, so from that perspective you have options of what to deploy.   Since a USB-A port will be more practical for a long time given existing cables and adapters, it's going to be a prevalent option for quite a while.

The USB-C port in my PMA450B audio panel provides 3A, or 15W.    The USB-A in-panel port in my airplane provides 2.4A (12W) per port which is pretty comparable.   The USB-A socket adapters I have in the 12V cigar lighter jacks in the airplane are similar.   

I recently put one of these, in the link below, in my truck.   It delivers 20W through the USB-C port, and 18W through the USB 3.0.   Again, pretty comparable.   USB-C is expected to become more ubiquitous for many reasons, and it'll be nice when it does, but I expect USB-A and particularly 3.0 to be around for a long time.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08TMDTQQV

 

[Hank]

  On 4/5/2023 at 7:21 PM, ArtVandelay said:

May be C on the device end, but the other end plug into our panels will probably be A for a very long time.

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The new phone that I bought in April '23 came with a cord that had USB-C on both ends. Won't work with my old chargers. Yes, I now have some adapters . . . .

[PT20J]

  On 4/6/2023 at 4:45 PM, Hank said:

The new phone that I bought in April '23 came with a cord that had USB-C on both ends. Won't work with my old chargers. Yes, I now have some adapters . . . .

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It's all a plot by the cable manufacturers 

[rbp]

  On 4/6/2023 at 6:57 PM, PT20J said:

It's all a plot by the cable manufacturers 

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I blame Georg Simon Ohm, Alessandro Volta, and André-Marie Ampère

seriously, though, improvements in power and data transmission speeds are to blame.  can't watch TikTok over RS-232

[rbp]

  On 4/6/2023 at 4:44 PM, EricJ said:

as you correctly point out, provide all of the capabilities that are possible through the USB-C spec, but neither will most USB-C ports

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this is a specious argument. the key is compatibility among disparate devices with various capabilities, not for every device to have every feature. You really want a USB-C to- USB-A cable for your android phone in the plane because your plane's USB port doesn't have fast-charge capability, and a USB-C to USB-C on your desk for fast charging the same device? 

one cable, both ends identical, plug goes in right-side-up or right-side-down, provides enough power for any device, and data transmission speed sufficient for anything between a mouse and a 4K display

but who cares. stick with USB-A to micro B

[EricJ]

  On 4/6/2023 at 7:21 PM, rbp said:

this is a specious argument. the key is compatibility among disparate devices with various capabilities, not for every device to have every feature. You really want a USB-C to- USB-A cable for your android phone in the plane because your plane's USB port doesn't have fast-charge capability, and a USB-C to USB-C on your desk for fast charging the same device? 

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The argument isn't specious, it points out that typical candidates for in-panel USB-C power ports have very similar capabilities to typical USB-A ports.   If the main difference is the form factor of the connector, and people currently have a lot of USB-A cables, there's not a lot of motivation to change them out.   I think people want what provides useful functionality and utility and convenience.   Right now that's USB-A, and it may change over time, but since in-cabin requirements aren't that daunting for most equipment, I don't expect the utility of USB-A chargers to go away for a long time.   As others have pointed out, many people just use plug-in adapters in the cigar lighters, so they're easy to change out to whatever makes the most sense at the time, including something like the combo USB-C/USB 3.0(+) socket that I linked earlier, or who knows what. 

I use USB-C equipment in the cabin, but it works fine plugged into my USB-A socket.   The USB-C port built into my audio panel does almost exactly the same thing, so I could plug it in there, too, but the location is less convenient, so I use the USB-A port.   Once there's an actual clear advantage sufficient to make people actually switch, then that'll happen, but it's unlikely to be for quite a while.

[Pinecone]

  On 4/6/2023 at 4:33 PM, carusoam said:

Speaking of iPad cords…

Two just came out of my plane with their white outer layer crumbling off…

Both had lightning ends on them, so they aren’t left over from the ipad1 days….

 

Do you all have a preferred source, or length of this next link in the USB chain?

Best regards,

-a-

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I have had the same issue with Apple cords.

I have a couple of Ankar now that seem to be more robust.

One that I carry is USB-A to plug into power and 3 tails with Lightning, USB-C, and Micro USB ends.  You can use more than one tail at a time.

My plane came with a MidContinent digital clock with 2x USB-A ports.  I might consider replacing it with their version with 1 - USB-A and 1 - USB-C.  Or just keep it and add USB-C panel mount power device.

From my side, I use one for my iPad Mini (and it charges it slowly in use) and one for my Mountain High O2D2

[carusoam]

I was thinking about the value of the high speed charger yesterday….  In bright sunlight, the background light uses a lot more energy…

1) iPads give two warnings of impending doom… 10 and 5% energy levels….

2) When really busy… these warnings get deferred easily….

3) When really busy… distraction is nearly guaranteed… and good intention isn’t enough…

4) IPad gives its last warning as it shuts down….

5) A slow charger takes several minutes to charge up to the minimum level to come back on….

6) While this all takes place… you wonder if the cord is actually working…

7) This all took place… comfortably at my kitchen table, not in the air…   

 

Is there a way to know the rate of charge a device is absorbing?  Is there a screen that shows charge status?

How do we know it is working as expected and not in some form of low energy limp mode?

Best regards,

-a-

[EricJ]

  On 4/7/2023 at 3:27 PM, carusoam said:

I was thinking about the value of the high speed charger yesterday….  In bright sunlight, the background light uses a lot more energy…

1) iPads give two warnings of impending doom… 10 and 5% energy levels….

2) When really busy… these warnings get deferred easily….

3) When really busy… distraction is nearly guaranteed… and good intention isn’t enough…

4) IPad gives its last warning as it shuts down….

5) A slow charger takes several minutes to charge up to the minimum level to come back on….

6) While this all takes place… you wonder if the cord is actually working…

7) This all took place… comfortably at my kitchen table, not in the air…   

 

Is there a way to know the rate of charge a device is absorbing?  Is there a screen that shows charge status?

How do we know it is working as expected and not in some form of low energy limp mode?

Best regards,

-a-

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Don't assume any power port, even USB-C, has fast-charging capability (whatever that means, which may differ among devices).   It may not.   That said, most modern sockets of all types have pretty decent current capability, and the trend in devices for years has been to decrease power consumption to increase battery life, reduce cost, etc.,  so the trends are in a generally helpful direction.

I fly with two tablets, because I'm a weirdo, and one of them is generally always plugged in.   I have another cord that I'll  swap between the second tablet and whatever else is plugged in, like my phone, the tablet I let passengers use, etc., etc.   So doing the charging cord dance is just part of my normal operations.   It's usually not that important, but on very long flights keeping everything at a decent charge level might take some attention.

[Fly Boomer]

  On 4/7/2023 at 1:15 PM, Pinecone said:

From my side, I use one for my iPad Mini (and it charges it slowly in use) and one for my Mountain High O2D2

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Is there another box or wall-wart to run the O2D2 from USB?  And if you do that, do you remove the batteries?

[LANCECASPER]

  On 4/7/2023 at 9:32 PM, Fly Boomer said:

Is there another box or wall-wart to run the O2D2 from USB? 

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https://www.mhoxygen.com/2016/wp-content/uploads/5IUSB-0001-00-0-36990-0USB-03-Cable-USB-A-Plug-to-Ø3.5mm-DC-Power-Plug-2-up_Page_1.pdf

[Hank]

  On 4/7/2023 at 6:02 PM, EricJ said:

I fly with two tablets, because I'm a weirdo, and one of them is generally always plugged in.   I have another cord that I'll  swap between the second tablet and whatever else is plugged in, like my phone, the tablet I let passengers use, etc., etc.   So doing the charging cord dance is just part of my normal operations.   It's usually not that important, but on very long flights keeping everything at a decent charge level might take some attention.

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I fly with one tablet, and if it's charged at the beginning, I've yet to run out of power, including a 3-leg day totaling over 6 hours flight time and a couold hours on the ground. I think it was around 30% power after driving home. (It's an old Galaxy Tab A.)

To save phone power, I turn off wifi and turn on Airplane mode, otherwise a couple of hours' searching for a signal at 9000+ will pretty much kill the battery. 

[EricJ]

  On 4/7/2023 at 11:27 PM, Hank said:

To save phone power, I turn off wifi and turn on Airplane mode, otherwise a couple of hours' searching for a signal at 9000+ will pretty much kill the battery. 

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None of my tablets have cellular access, but in the airplane they're always connected to the stratux via WiFi for traffic and weather and AHRS and gps backup.   These days BT and WiFi don't use too much power, but it does use some, so it'll make a difference on a long flight.

I have a couple Tab As, and they've always been really good on battery endurance.