Mooney Purchase - m20F sitting for 8 years

[Mellow_Mooney]

Hey Guys,

New here but hope to be a Mooney owner soon. 

I’m looking at a Mooney that was sitting for 8 years before the current broker bought it. He bought it, fixed it up in Colorado, ran annuals and said checked oil proficiently right after they got it running again. Then he flew it over the Rockies to California. It has about 10-20 hours on it now since it’s been fixed up. 
 

He said he took a borescope to the engine and saw no signs of corrosion and it had its annual done in October.
 

I read up on some of the other posts on here and a recommendation was to take one of the cylinders out to check the cam shaft… so think I’m going to have an A&P close by do that and probably run another annual inspection just to be safe. Unless someone suggests otherwise. 
 

I understand this is a risk, my question is if there is anything else I can do to reduce the risk on purchasing this airplane? And do you guys think the engine / aircraft should be priced as an overhaul? Or is it realistic or just optimistic to think it might last a while? It’s got 956 hours on it and was overhauled about 20 years ago. Flown regularly until 2014 (50-80 hrs a year).

 

I guess the old owner got dementia and his sons took over the plane for him and sold it when he died. He kept it in his own hangar (apparently pretty large with a helicopter, ford and some other stuff in it) until he died. 
 

Thanks for any help / suggestions in advance. Really nice plane and hope I can buy it but don’t want to put myself in a bad situation. First time buyer.

 

-Ryan

 

 

[rbp]

https://www.savvyaviation.com/savvyprebuy/
 

$750 of insurance

[Mellow_Mooney]

20 minutes ago, rbp said:

https://www.savvyaviation.com/savvyprebuy/
 

$750 of insurance

Thanks, just submitted a ticket to them. 

[Fly Boomer]

2 minutes ago, Mellow_Mooney said:

Thanks, just submitted a ticket to them. 

While I think highly of Mike and his organization, I would say (and I suspect Mike would agree) that a pre-buy is no guarantee you won't have issues.  Good to do, but no guarantee.

[Mellow_Mooney]

4 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

While I think highly of Mike and his organization, I would say (and I suspect Mike would agree) that a pre-buy is no guarantee you won't have issues.  Good to do, but no guarantee.

Thanks. Yeah from what I’ve been reading it seems like it’s going to be a risk no matter what. Im ok with some risk, just wondering if it’s high amount or low amount if everything were to go well with the pre buy and the plane looks good. 
 

Everything outside of it sitting looks like it was very well maintained. Paint is a 9/10 and original, interior looks good. 
 

[Fly Boomer]

1 minute ago, Mellow_Mooney said:

Thanks. Yeah from what I’ve been reading it seems like it’s going to be a risk no matter what. Im ok with some risk, just wondering if it’s high amount or low amount if everything were to go well with the pre buy and the plane looks good. 
 

Everything outside of it sitting looks like it was very well maintained. Paint is a 9/10 and original, interior looks good. 
 

Well, if the engine doesn't last as long as you hope, the fix (and expense) are predictable.  Structural corrosion, on the other hand can be a show stopper.

[bcg]

Not to be flip but, it'll be fine, unless it isn't...

As mentioned, look for the deal breakers like corrosion. If it checks out, I would buy it for a number where I would still be able to stomach the total cost if I did have to do an overhaul. 10-20 hours of flight time is enough for things to start showing up if there are lingering issues. After 40-50, I would feel pretty confident in it.

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[rickseeman]

At least it has a Lycoming IO-360 which has a walk-on-water reputation for a reason.

[RoundTwo]

It could turn out to be a great plane and a great deal for you, or not. Just make sure you do your homework.

[Mellow_Mooney]

2 hours ago, bcg said:

Not to be flip but, it'll be fine, unless it isn't...

As mentioned, look for the deal breakers like corrosion. If it checks out, I would buy it for a number where I would still be able to stomach the total cost if I did have to do an overhaul. 10-20 hours of flight time is enough for things to start showing up if there are lingering issues. After 40-50, I would feel pretty confident in it.

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Thanks, good to know 40-50 is the threshold for confidence... wonder if I can work something out with the owner... 

 

I'm planning to ask for a cost reduction but we'll see what he says. Really hard to get into the ownership market right now!

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, rickseeman said:

At least it has a Lycoming IO-360 which has a walk-on-water reputation for a reason.

Other than bad camshaft and lifter faces and cracked crankcase’s they’re not too bad.

[M20F]

15 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Other than bad camshaft and lifter faces and cracked crankcase’s they’re not too bad.

Haha I can echo all of those things……

[jetdriven]

Your first post  says it all, the broker bought it after sitting several years and then brought it home to sell.  Ask him if that annual comes with a warranty because I get these planes all the time in the shop that end up with a $10,000 annual when it comes around because so much stuff was not done right and the plane is in awful shape.  And that's before we talk about spar or cafe corrosion.  The broker won't look too hard for that and if they found it, wouldnt disclose it. This site is full of those deals. 

[RobertGary1]

21 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Well, if the engine doesn't last as long as you hope, the fix (and expense) are predictable.  Structural corrosion, on the other hand can be a show stopper.

I get the effects of an engine sitting but why would a wing corrode from sitting vs flying? The wing isn’t heated in flight to drive out moisture. 

[carusoam]

20 hours ago, rickseeman said:

At least it has a Lycoming IO-360 which has a walk-on-water reputation for a reason.

Except for cam lobe / lifter surfaces after sitting for several years unused…. The point of this thread.

For this specific concern… people remove at least one cylinder to see as many lifters and lobes that they can see…

But, most sellers aren’t that interested in taking on that much work… to sell something somebody else will buy…

Planes that have sat… often suffer from not being pre-oiled… the results look like corrosion… the result is a pock (lunar surface) marked lifter surface that grinds down the lobe…

 

If you are a serious buyer and are working a deal to buy this specific plane with a serious seller… this works out well…

If there are competing sellers… or competing buyers, the patience for this level of pre-buy detail may go to the competitors…

 

Mooneys are in short supply still… buyers are still lining up…

Lycomings that have sat for years are at risk for cam lobe issues…

 

Fixing their cam lobe issues requires opening the engine up… aka separating the case halfs… at this time, overhaul is only a few dollars more… (check the price for an OH.)

 

Negotiating requires a certain skill…. That can be rented.  Negotiating isn’t always just getting the lowest price…

 

The number one thing to consider… this plane might be better for somebody with more airplane ownership experience…

Being a first time owner of a plane that has sat a long time… can be disappointing…

One cylinder off can expose many of the surfaces, but not all…  all requires two cylinders being removed…

If you are an aviation mechanic… this is an easy day’s labor and worth it…

 

Lots of advice around here states it is best to buy a plane that has been flying regularly…

If you love this plane… move forwards.

If this plane means as much to you as the next one… move along.

 

My first plane stuck a valve after sitting for two years…. We pulled a cylinder after that….  
 

The good thing… if the cam lobes are getting ground down… it becomes obvious with the first oil change (often).

It isn’t usually a sudden engine stoppage… just power slowly going away… T/Os get longer, climbs are slower… metal bits show up on the screen/filter…

Proper long term storage of a Mooney engine requires a dry environment, often supplied by a dehydrator being plumbed to the engine… and maintained monthly… or fly regularly…

How Mooney knowledgable is this broker?

About costs…

If the Mooney costs as much as a new car… pulling cylinders is usually too expensive… risk taken is higher…

If the Mooney costs as much as your house… pulling cylinders is more likely…

If you are paying as much as house… you probably aren’t buying a plane that has been sitting for so long being, sold by a broker… way too much risk involved…

PP thoughts only… not a plane sales guy or a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

[Fly Boomer]

22 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

I get the effects of an engine sitting but why would a wing corrode from sitting vs flying? The wing isn’t heated in flight to drive out moisture. 

I think the wing (like all metals) can corrode at any time.  Doesn't matter how it got that way.  If corroded badly enough, it can send an otherwise gorgeous airplane with new paint, new interior, and all-glass panel to the salvage yard.

[PT20J]

My concern would be that if an airplane has been sitting a long time without being inspected and maintained that any corrosion that did start would have advanced uncorrected.

[carusoam]

Wing spar concerns…

The alloy that spars are made from… the really strong stuff.

Is susceptible to inter granular corrosion… the mean stuff.

Unfortunately, you get about a year between identifying the start of corrosion, and the corrosion getting too deep to fix, without spar replacement… because this type of corrosion spreads rapidly within this alloy…

hence the timing of annual inspections…

a common spot to find a touch of corrosion starting… under the rug in the back seat… the spar cap gets all kinds of abuse by being stepped on and spilled on…. And it isn’t well recognized for what it is… and how important it is…

But, lifting the rug is an easy way to look for it…   

A rats nest in the wing can really make things challenging….

The most complex fixes for Mooneys are probably spar related or steel tube related… when parts need to be exchanged….

PP thoughts only…

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

My concern would be that if an airplane has been sitting a long time without being inspected and maintained that any corrosion that did start would have advanced uncorrected.

Especially rodent damage. I have a surveillance video somewhere that showed field mice climbing up and into the fuselage of the Cessna next me. The plane sat for years. Finally, it was put up for sale and there was enough bedding material (and the associated urine) to fill a mattress.


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[sleeper-319]

23 hours ago, Mellow_Mooney said:

I understand this is a risk, my question is if there is anything else I can do to reduce the risk on purchasing this airplane?

I bought a similar aircraft 2 years ago. The lifter issue materialized. In my case, but since I anticipated it and priced it into the sale, it was no biggie. Just downtime (which is not nothing by the way). Since these engines are kinda famous for lifter spalling after extended periods of disuse, I’d hope for for the best and plan for the worst. I wouldn’t even bother pulling the cylinder, just price it like it’s gonna need an overhaul (or given the hours, maybe an IRAN). 

And definitely do your own pre-buy if you haven’t done one; don’t rely on the seller.

 

 

[rbp]

On 1/14/2023 at 1:34 PM, Fly Boomer said:

While I think highly of Mike and his organization, I would say (and I suspect Mike would agree) that a pre-buy is no guarantee you won't have issues.  Good to do, but no guarantee.

I’m not sure why one would use the word “guarantee”?  Do you get a guarantee from a doctor? A lawyer? An accountant? A tennis coach?   Of course not, and no one would suggest it.   That doesn’t mean you don’t use them.

 

Everything has associated risk, but it needs to be balanced against the rewards. 

[RobertGary1]

On 1/15/2023 at 8:19 AM, Fly Boomer said:

I think the wing (like all metals) can corrode at any time.  Doesn't matter how it got that way.  If corroded badly enough, it can send an otherwise gorgeous airplane with new paint, new interior, and all-glass panel to the salvage yard.

Yea so why do some believe this is a sitting plane issue? Sitting for flying wing corrosion happens the same. 

[Mellow_Mooney]

Hey guys,

 

So I think I already know the answer to what I need to do next... but wanted to give you an update and see your thoughts.

 

I reached out to seller to negotiate a Savvy Prebuy, where if anything was wrong with it relating to corrosion - we would split for half and then move forward/negotiate price again depending on what they came up with. If nothing was wrong, I offered to pay for the prebuy in full. 

 

The seller responded saying that he doesn't like Savvy Prebuys. They will charge 2500 and bring up a huge squak list after taking 2-3 weeks to get the the prebuy done, that they expect the planes to be new and that removal of a cylinder is an advanced surgery that he does not want to do on his plane... he said he had another seller interested and asked if he could pursue it to see if they are real... which I am about to respond as acceptable.

 

I'm taking this as a red flag and about to release the plane... but wanted to get your thoughts on this first? Any truth to what he is saying?

 

Thanks in advance for the help/responses - you guys rock. Would be pretty clueless and probably be making a mistake without you. 

 

Best,

 

 

[Ryan ORL]

Most of that is FUD and "I don't like prebuys" stuff.  Every airplane prebuy is going to generate pages of squawks if the prebuy is thorough enough.  Most of them will be minor and not even really need to be addressed... more like "something to be aware of".  So that's a bit of a silly criticism.

BUT, I personally wouldn't let a buyer pull a cylinder on my airplane, but then I also am not trying to sell an airplane that's been sitting for 8 years.  My opinion on that is... you inspect what you can inspect (borescope, oil analysis, screen, cut filter, etc) and he should mark the price appropriate to the increased risk of the stuff you can't see... and then you assume that risk if you decide to purchase it, in exchange for a better price.  You should go into it expecting to potentially need to do an engine, and value it appropriately. 

I believe the increased risk of maintenance induced failure from R&R of a cylinder probably outweighs any reassurance you can get yourself from inspecting the camshaft directly.  I believe the Mike Busch attitude towards this is that airplanes don't fall from the sky because camshaft lobes get worn down... If the camshaft is coming apart, you'll find out pretty quickly from the oil screen.

All this being said, I personally purchased my plane at TBO because I don't trust other people to care for an engine (or to be truthful and complete about the flying history since OH) and I believe you should always assume any airplane engine could require overhaul tomorrow.  There is very little that is inherently "safer" about buying a 500, 750, 1000 SMOH engine versus a 2000 SMOH... other than that you will have paid a lot more money for it.  On the used airplane market, I think there's no bigger ripoff than a "350 SMOH" engine that was last overhauled in 2007.

[ArtVandelay]

I don’t like Savvy prebuys either, I’ve seen the squawks from one, a lot of minor nitpicking. If you are buying a plane you should have at least seen it in person and have taken a ride. I don’t need them to tell me about paint chipping, cracking leather, burned out landing light, etc
Prebuy should consist of checking:
1.Corrosion (removal of interior panels and inspection panels required)
2.If engine isn’t a runout, engine condition.
3.Fuel tank leaking.

What’s that, 6-8 hours of work?

I can see the obvious and would ask the seller to demonstrate all aspects of the panel during test flight; especially autopilot and ADSB. Lights are trivial to check.

I would never buy a plane that isn’t currently in annual, ready to fly, and I haven’t looked at it.