Turbonormalizing a Mooney Ovation

[Schllc]

I can tell you after flying an acclaim for several years and then flying an ovation for a few months, I REALLY missed my turbo. I flew my new bird home yesterday and it was wonderful!

The ovation I was flying did not tolerate LOP ops at all, so wide open throttle at 10k I was seeing 174 ktas at 17.2-17.4gph. If it would go LOP I could probably get the fuel burn down to 14gph but would also be down to 165 ktas.
 

My acclaim at 12k 196 ktas at 15-15.3gph at 80% power. 
At 16k I was seeing 203 ktas at the same settings (all LOP)
GPM in the two planes is very close when you can run the ovation LOP.  But the fuel burn is negligible and it’s nice when on a 750 km trip you can cut almost an hour off the travel time. 
(Both planes are equipped with fiki, so speeds a slower than others may see, especially the ones with magic ovations)

Trade off for a turbo is very worth it to me. 

[hypertech]

On 8/19/2022 at 4:24 PM, kortopates said:

one exception to your excellent points about TAT’s turbo’s is that probably there biggest successes have been with the Cirrus fleet, but uniquely here Cirrus, the OEM, offered TATs turbo initially as their first Turbo and then side by side along with the TCM turbo engine before going with just the TCM turbo more recently. As far as i know, you can’t get Cirrus or TAT to upgrade a SR22 to a TAT because of the Garmin avionics suite - the same problem you would run into trying to add it to a G1000 Ovation.


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What’s the ratio of g1000 to non-g1000 ovations?  Anyone know?  Mine does not have the g1000 and that’s one of the reasons k picked the plane and another reason I wouldn’t want to move to an acclaim. 

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, hypertech said:

What’s the ratio of g1000 to non-g1000 ovations?  Anyone know?  Mine does not have the g1000 and that’s one of the reasons k picked the plane and another reason I wouldn’t want to move to an acclaim. 

I believe serial numbers 29-0001 (Model Year 1994) through 29-0332 (Model year 2004), with the exception of -0325, were non-G1000.

Serial number -0325 and then -0333 and anything since then were G-1000. 

G1000 Ovations (M20R)

2005         0325, 0333-0409

2006         0410 - 0442

From this point on all of them were Ovation 3

2007          0443 - 0484

2008          0485 - 0519

2015           0520 - 0521

2016           0522 and up

All Mooney Ovation Ultras (M20U)

[LANCECASPER]

13 hours ago, hypertech said:

What’s the ratio of g1000 to non-g1000 ovations?  Anyone know?  Mine does not have the g1000 and that’s one of the reasons k picked the plane and another reason I wouldn’t want to move to an acclaim. 

I used to say the same and now I own an Acclaim. It's one of those things that you don't realize how good it is until you fly it, especially the GFC700, which is the best autopilot I've ever flown behind. The over all integration is really nice.

That being said Mooney is in the process of working on the approval on the paperwork so that if a G1000 owner wants to remove it they can put in the panel of their choice. As of now, I'd have no desire to do that, but who knows down the road.

[carusoam]

Hmmmmmmm….

There isn’t a pathway to go from M20R to M20TN that I know of…

I tried finding a route a decade ago….

 

But….

Since we are spending big OPM here….

Contact Mooney about getting the Carbon Fiber Cowling for an Acclaim….

 

This would make the forever plane Mooney now have a pair of TNs….!   

This path is more interesting than any before…

Best regards,

-a-

[Mark89114]

13 hours ago, carusoam said:

Hmmmmmmm….

There isn’t a pathway to go from M20R to M20TN that I know of…

I tried finding a route a decade ago….

 

But….

Since we are spending big OPM here….

Contact Mooney about getting the Carbon Fiber Cowling for an Acclaim….

 

This would make the forever plane Mooney now have a pair of TNs….!   

This path is more interesting than any before…

Best regards,

-a-

Not an expert, but I looked at some Acclaims online and the cowl shape looks similar to what us Ovation drivers currently have.  I didn't even seen any cooling vents, the air intake looks different.  Just being a CB here and not sure a carbon fiber cowl would be what is needed.  I have a sawzall and could cut and fiberglass whatever is necessary.....  Would you even need two turbos?  

This question was posted seriously to gain feedback as I would consider spending MM (My Money) for this.  The upgrade options are few and far apart and this would be a useful addition to the Ovation line.  I am nearby the Turbo folks in ADA OK and told them I would be fine bring my mooney by for an evaluation.  Fly safe.

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, Mark89114 said:

 I have a sawzall and could cut and fiberglass whatever is necessary.....  Would you even need two turbos?  

 

Sounds like you're all set 

[M20F]

5 hours ago, Mark89114 said:

Not an expert, but I looked at some Acclaims online and the cowl shape looks similar to what us Ovation drivers currently have.  I didn't even seen any cooling vents, the air intake looks different.  Just being a CB here and not sure a carbon fiber cowl would be what is needed.  I have a sawzall and could cut and fiberglass whatever is necessary.....  Would you even need two turbos?  

This question was posted seriously to gain feedback as I would consider spending MM (My Money) for this.  The upgrade options are few and far apart and this would be a useful addition to the Ovation line.  I am nearby the Turbo folks in ADA OK and told them I would be fine bring my mooney by for an evaluation.  Fly safe.

Speaking as a RayJay guy I have to say the cooling issue is really complicated.   Today a lot more tools to figure that out but to really cool things down you have to change a lot more than just the cowling.  That starts to get expensive and impractical at some point or you make sacrifices that cause you less than ideal. 

[carusoam]

18 hours ago, Mark89114 said:

Not an expert, but I looked at some Acclaims online and the cowl shape looks similar to what us Ovation drivers currently have.  I didn't even seen any cooling vents, the air intake looks different.  Just being a CB here and not sure a carbon fiber cowl would be what is needed.  I have a sawzall and could cut and fiberglass whatever is necessary.....  Would you even need two turbos?  

This question was posted seriously to gain feedback as I would consider spending MM (My Money) for this.  The upgrade options are few and far apart and this would be a useful addition to the Ovation line.  I am nearby the Turbo folks in ADA OK and told them I would be fine bring my mooney by for an evaluation.  Fly safe.

There are issues to be resolved when going from the Ovation with small intake nostrils….

To adding a TN system….

The Acclaim has a package from Continental that uses a pair of snails that have been proven to work under the Acclaim’s cowl…

Keeping it all cool at altitude… is the big round nostrils….

Its OK to be good with a sawzall….  But if you are redesigning things instead of copying a proven solution… this can get expensive and take forever….

Keep in mind… the Acclaim uses a different compression ratio as well….  The name says TN… but it is more TC’d than they lead you to believe….

 

Many Ovations with the TopProp are already battling a nose heavy situation…  adding a pair of snails and coolers is a few more pounds out on the nose…

Suddenly, the carbon fiber cowling starts looking pretty good…. 

 

Being a CB is good…. 
 

Make sure you get the whole package in a useable form…. Or it will be incredibly expensive to complete….

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[aviatoreb]

On 8/20/2022 at 1:11 PM, Schllc said:

I can tell you after flying an acclaim for several years and then flying an ovation for a few months, I REALLY missed my turbo. I flew my new bird home yesterday and it was wonderful!

The ovation I was flying did not tolerate LOP ops at all, so wide open throttle at 10k I was seeing 174 ktas at 17.2-17.4gph. If it would go LOP I could probably get the fuel burn down to 14gph but would also be down to 165 ktas.
 

My acclaim at 12k 196 ktas at 15-15.3gph at 80% power. 
At 16k I was seeing 203 ktas at the same settings (all LOP)
GPM in the two planes is very close when you can run the ovation LOP.  But the fuel burn is negligible and it’s nice when on a 750 km trip you can cut almost an hour off the travel time. 
(Both planes are equipped with fiki, so speeds a slower than others may see, especially the ones with magic ovations)

Trade off for a turbo is very worth it to me. 

Why did you trade from the Aclaim to the ovation in the first place?

[Schllc]

51 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Why did you trade from the Aclaim to the ovation in the first place?

I sold my ultra when I bought a twin, then discovered the avionic upgrade was going to put the plane down for six months. 
A friend offered to dry lease his ovation to me until I could buy something.
To be honest it wasn’t just the speed.  It was also not being able to modify or fix little things, like add Adsb in, or gami injectors, etc. 

 

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, Schllc said:

I sold my ultra when I bought a twin, then discovered the avionic upgrade was going to put the plane down for six months. 
A friend offered to dry lease his ovation to me until I could buy something.
To be honest it wasn’t just the speed.  It was also not being able to modify or fix little things, like add Adsb in, or gami injectors, etc. 

 

Oh - I get it. well I don't know what you can and cannot do to an ovation or an acclaim, but it has been really fun with my M20K rocket modding it / improving it a little bit each year.  Airframe, interior, paint, avionics, engine, prop, tail number, etc....its just fun and really personalizes it.

[Schllc]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

Oh - I get it. well I don't know what you can and cannot do to an ovation or an acclaim, but it has been really fun with my M20K rocket modding it / improving it a little bit each year.  Airframe, interior, paint, avionics, engine, prop, tail number, etc....its just fun and really personalizes it.

its an airplane, there is ALWAYS something you can do!

[M20F]

1 hour ago, Schllc said:

its an airplane, there is ALWAYS something you can do!

Occasionally you can even fly them!

[aviatoreb]

6 hours ago, Schllc said:

its an airplane, there is ALWAYS something you can do!

I know!  I am in Scotland right now - the LA (ugh the flight that will be!) - so I used the opportunity of this two week trip to drop my airplane at avionics to chase out a static in the radio annoyance and get the radar altimeter altitude alert system installed. Wohoo!  Always fun to try your old trusty friend airplane with yet another new toy!

[Niko182]

On 8/19/2022 at 8:34 AM, Mark89114 said:

I sent an email last night....he responded this morning.  Told me Ovations were high on the list.  Needs 10 "straw" orders (don't know that expression) and cost would be $55K to $60K.

 

If they could include the eagle under the same STC I think I would be interested. Ovation and Eagle share the same parts catalog. Ever since moving to denver, a turbo doesn't sound half bad.

[smccray]

On 8/19/2022 at 10:08 AM, kortopates said:

TAT does it now with Cirri and Bonanza's on the essentially the same IO-550, so they're already really close except for working out the installation details. 

But honestly, you would do MUCH better expense wise by just trading up to an Acclaim and probably save a lot of headaches. That is after all only a "straw" price estimate!

I hope they get to the Ovation- will make a really nice airplane.  I don't have any experience with an Ovation, but if the cowling is as tight as my old J, a conversion will end up requiring a new cowling just to fit in all the components.

So Gami/TAT will take a bit to get to that new project.  First they have to get G100UL distribution figured out (AOPA says they got the STC today).  Then they have a modification in the works for the A36- they leaked a photo on beech talk a while back- likely includes the new electronic ignition.  Facilitates running more fuel through the system (more HP).  There's also talk about a TN B58- apparently there's a plane flying with the conversation, so we'll see what happens on that front.

A36: https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2804990#p2804990

B58: https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=207537&view=unread#unread

Edited September 1, 2022 by smccray
links to other Gami/TAT projects

[Niko182]

4 minutes ago, smccray said:

I hope they get to the Ovation- will make a really nice airplane.  I don't have any experience with an Ovation, but if the cowling is as tight as my old J, a conversion will end up requiring a new cowling just to fit in all the components.

So Gami/TAT will take a bit to get to that new project.  First they have to get G100UL distribution figured out (AOPA says they got the STC today).  Then they have a modification in the works for the A36- they leaked a photo on beech talk a while back- likely includes the new electronic ignition.  Facilitates running more fuel through the system (more HP).  There's also talk about a TN B58- apparently there's a plane flying with the conversation, so we'll see what happens on that front.

If 2 can fit in an acclaim and 1 can fit in a bravo why cant one fit an ovation?

[smccray]

2 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

If 2 can fit in an acclaim and 1 can fit in a bravo why cant one fit an ovation?

Fair question- and someone smarter than me can quickly tell me I'm wrong.  The J model cowling was really tight- it wouldn't have fit.  Not sure if the Ovation engine setup gives a little extra room.  Two smaller turbos may be easier to fit than one large as is used in the TAT setup.  The latest released version of the A36 also includes an intercooler located under the right side of the engine.  There's a lot of equipment to fit in a notoriously tight cowling.

I'd also be concerned about cooling- someone above mentioned the size of the inlets which seems like a valid concern.  I'd also be concerned with the added equipment in the cowling restricting air flow too much even if the nostrils turn out to be big enough.

I'm just a guy throwing flags from the cheap seats.  Fortunately the guys at TAT know their stuff.

[LANCECASPER]

40 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

If 2 can fit in an acclaim and 1 can fit in a bravo why cant one fit an ovation?

The power plants used in the Bravo and Acclaim were designed from the start to have a turbo-charger and intercooler. Every hose, every accessory , every detail assumed that. If you look at an Ovation the way it is without a conversion there isn't any left-over room for a turbo or intercooler let alone all of the additional hoses and hardware and brackets to support them. I'm sure it can be done, especially by these guys, but like others have said, most likely it will need a new cowling, if for nothing else the cooling needed for a turbo-charged engine.

I think the conversion would be one of the best things that could ever happen to Bravo and Acclaim values. As an example, now people don't assign a lot more value to the same year Bravo compared to an Ovation. For a brief time used Bravos were actually even or less money than an Ovation, same year. With a conversion available people will compare what the conversion will run to a factory airplane that already has it. 

[carusoam]

If I wanted to bolt an Acclaim’s front end to the Ovation airframe…

Skip the development work and write an STC based on the Acclaim…

The Ovation is close, but not real close….

1) Engine… TN’d compression ratio is different…. Some expensive upgrade to do the conversion…

2) pair of TNs…

3) pair of intercoolers…

4) Pressure controller and plumbing…

5) All the exhaust bits that go with that…

6) Suit it up with the large nostril cowling…

7) Make it carbon fiber to add lightness…

8) Don’t forget the Acclaim’s TopProp…. Another way to add more lightness…

9) instrument panel additions…. To include the TIT and MP range….

10) Cost of the STC…

 

This would be a dream job for that guy who once was in Florida…. Until Hurricane Charlie caused the chopping up of a few M20Ls….

They specialized in Mooney conversions from older models to newer models… M20F/J, M20K/262, and others…

It seems to be a bit more complex than just adding a single TN to the existing plane…

Coy Jacobs had the clientele that could and wanted to afford this type of upgrade….

 

Can you keep the project under 100AMU?

 

PP thoughts only, not an aero-engineer…

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Niko182]

On 8/19/2022 at 8:34 AM, Mark89114 said:

I sent an email last night....he responded this morning.  Told me Ovations were high on the list.  Needs 10 "straw" orders (don't know that expression) and cost would be $55K to $60K.

 

Whats the name of the guy that responded. Id like to shoot them a call.

[Will.iam]

19 hours ago, smccray said:

Fair question- and someone smarter than me can quickly tell me I'm wrong.  The J model cowling was really tight- it wouldn't have fit.  Not sure if the Ovation engine setup gives a little extra room.  Two smaller turbos may be easier to fit than one large as is used in the TAT setup.  The latest released version of the A36 also includes an intercooler located under the right side of the engine.  There's a lot of equipment to fit in a notoriously tight cowling.

I'd also be concerned about cooling- someone above mentioned the size of the inlets which seems like a valid concern.  I'd also be concerned with the added equipment in the cowling restricting air flow too much even if the nostrils turn out to be big enough.

I'm just a guy throwing flags from the cheap seats.  Fortunately the guys at TAT know their stuff.

As tight as a J cowling is mooney stuffed a turbo in there with the 231. Then aftermarkets figured out how to stuff an intercooler in there. Then mooney came back with a turbo and intercooler with the 252. They will figure out how to add a turbo and intercooler in the ovation. Question will be at what price?

[Will.iam]

19 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

The power plants used in the Bravo and Acclaim were designed from the start to have a turbo-charger and intercooler. Every hose, every accessory , every detail assumed that. If you look at an Ovation the way it is without a conversion there isn't any left-over room for a turbo or intercooler let alone all of the additional hoses and hardware and brackets to support them. I'm sure it can be done, especially by these guys, but like others have said, most likely it will need a new cowling, if for nothing else the cooling needed for a turbo-charged engine.

I think the conversion would be one of the best things that could ever happen to Bravo and Acclaim values. As an example, now people don't assign a lot more value to the same year Bravo compared to an Ovation. For a brief time used Bravos were actually even or less money than an Ovation, same year. With a conversion available people will compare what the conversion will run to a factory airplane that already has it. 

I found this to be true when i was shopping for my airplane.   The J’s commanding a price point close to the same as the K’s. But when new from factory commanded a 30k plus premium. 
don’t know if at the time there was market scarcity of J’s or turbo maintenance fears of the K’s maybe a combination of both. 

[DCarlton]

Slightly off topic but similar...  I noticed GMAX has a turbo J for sale with the Lyc IO-360.  It's a nice airplane but has been on the market for a while.  Anyone have any experience with that mod?  Impacts on engine longevity and maintenance?  Wondering if it could be easily removed if it started giving you trouble or you decided to overhaul the engine and eliminate the mod.