MikeOH Posted November 5, 2022 Report Share Posted November 5, 2022 Ok, apparently this is a popular/desired STC. However, the heretic in me is curious as to why? My stock F has 64 gallon tanks, LOP, that's like 7+ hours to tanks dry. No friggin' way I'm sitting in the plane for 7 hours! I think my longest flight has been 4 1/2 hours and I had to be pried out! So, honest question: How many of you fly legs OVER 5 hours? (That's a flight at 10 gph, and giving better than a 1 hour reserve). I just can't understand the popularity of spending north of 10 AMU so one can stay in the plane for 11 hours at a 'stretch' 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingDude Posted November 5, 2022 Report Share Posted November 5, 2022 When you are flying from MI to Grand Canyon and you find $4.50 avgas in MO a $4.80 avgas in OK and it's $7.99 at Flagstaff, it makes perfect sense to stuff every drop into the plane like a thanksgiving turkey overstuffed in gravy. Otherwise, you're right. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOH Posted November 5, 2022 Report Share Posted November 5, 2022 3 minutes ago, FlyingDude said: When you are flying from MI to Grand Canyon and you find $4.50 avgas in MO a $4.80 avgas in OK and it's $7.99 at Flagstaff, it makes perfect sense to stuff every drop into the plane like a thanksgiving turkey overstuffed in gravy. Otherwise, you're right. Hmm, a couple more thoughts about that: 1) How much useful load is left after "overstuffing in gravy"? That is, wife and baggage along, can you do that? 2) So, $8.00-$4.50 = $3.50 savings per gallon. If the installed cost is $11,000 the payback is 314 hours of flying. Which, if you really can arrange trips to take advantage of cheap fuel is not too bad. I'm skeptical that the payback is really that quick, or consistently available, for most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko182 Posted November 5, 2022 Report Share Posted November 5, 2022 10 minutes ago, MikeOH said: Hmm, a couple more thoughts about that: 1) How much useful load is left after "overstuffing in gravy"? That is, wife and baggage along, can you do that? 2) So, $8.00-$4.50 = $3.50 savings per gallon. If the installed cost is $11,000 the payback is 314 hours of flying. Which, if you really can arrange trips to take advantage of cheap fuel is not too bad. I'm skeptical that the payback is really that quick, or consistently available, for most. Realistically youll probably get the money back after 1000 hours of flying. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted November 5, 2022 Report Share Posted November 5, 2022 30 minutes ago, MikeOH said: Ok, apparently this is a popular/desired STC. However, the heretic in me is curious as to why? My stock F has 64 gallon tanks, LOP, that's like 7+ hours to tanks dry. No friggin' way I'm sitting in the plane for 7 hours! I think my longest flight has been 4 1/2 hours and I had to be pried out! So, honest question: How many of you fly legs OVER 5 hours? (That's a flight at 10 gph, and giving better than a 1 hour reserve). I just can't understand the popularity of spending north of 10 AMU so one can stay in the plane for 11 hours at a 'stretch' Over 5 all the time, 6 only once. If I flew to Caribbean or Europe have more fuel will allow skipping expensive and time consuming stops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOH Posted November 5, 2022 Report Share Posted November 5, 2022 Just now, ArtVandelay said: Over 5 all the time, 6 only once. If I flew to Caribbean or Europe have more fuel will allow skipping expensive and time consuming stops. Ok, so for nearly all of your flights the standard tanks have worked just fine. "If I flew to the Caribbean or Europe"....well, there ya go! I wonder how many of us have that need? IMHO, @FlyingDude nailed it. THIS clearly falls into a "want" STC, not a "need" one. My curiosity for why this STC is popular has now been satiated 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingDude Posted November 5, 2022 Report Share Posted November 5, 2022 Was trying edit my previous post but it got deleted. The gist: in aviation, we get stuff, because we want it, not because we need it. How many of us "need" their Mooney? Seriously? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko182 Posted November 5, 2022 Report Share Posted November 5, 2022 Just now, MikeOH said: Ok, so for nearly all of your flights the standard tanks have worked just fine. "If I flew to the Caribbean or Europe"....well, there ya go! I wonder how many of us have that need? IMHO, @FlyingDude nailed it. THIS clearly falls into a "want" STC, not a "need" one. My curiosity for why this STC is popular has now been satiated Not many people fly to europe but it would make the trip available without a ferry tank a round the world trip a lot easier. You'd only need a ferry tank from fiji to hawaii and hawaii to CA. The rest could be done with these stock tanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McMooney Posted November 5, 2022 Report Share Posted November 5, 2022 I really want it for my E( 52g ), the extra 30 gallons would be perfect for my texas to midwest mission; hate wasting time for fuel in memphis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOH Posted November 5, 2022 Report Share Posted November 5, 2022 1 minute ago, McMooney said: I really want it for my E( 52g ), the extra 30 gallons would be perfect for my texas to midwest mission; hate wasting time for fuel in memphis. Agree. The STC makes a lot more sense for C/D/E models with 52 gal. tanks. My thoughts are really toward the value in an F/J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted November 5, 2022 Report Share Posted November 5, 2022 36 minutes ago, MikeOH said: IMHO, @FlyingDude nailed it. THIS clearly falls into a "want" STC, not a "need" one. My curiosity for why this STC is popular has now been satiated Slippery slope, if you sre limit to what’s needed…do you NEED an airplane. :-) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingDude Posted November 5, 2022 Report Share Posted November 5, 2022 1 minute ago, ArtVandelay said: Slippery slope, if you sre limit to what’s needed…do you NEED an airplane. :-) "The pursuit of happiness"... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickseeman Posted November 6, 2022 Report Share Posted November 6, 2022 I understand that some people don't understand. I'm ok with that. I'm sure they want some things that I can't understand why they would want that. Las Vegas to Arkansas is 6-8 hours depending on your Mooney model. I have no interest is landing where it's 30 degrees and howling wind outside just to refuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted November 6, 2022 Report Share Posted November 6, 2022 20 minutes ago, rickseeman said: I have no interest is landing where it's 30 degrees and howling wind outside just to refuel. Or when it's 105 outside just to refuel. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko182 Posted November 6, 2022 Report Share Posted November 6, 2022 3 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said: Or when it's 105 outside just to refuel. Amen to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted November 6, 2022 Report Share Posted November 6, 2022 3 hours ago, MikeOH said: So, honest question: How many of you fly legs OVER 5 hours? (That's a flight at 10 gph, and giving better than a 1 hour reserve). I just flew KJMS to KLZU and had to stop twice. I also do KLZU to KTOR. Often times of the years I can climb to FL190-210 and do 200+ knots on a leg of these trips making them non-stop with long range tanks. It is a long day however you slice it but beats having to get up/down multiple times and leverages my turbo. There is also tankering fuel which would have been nice looping between 47N and KDPA 2-3 times a month for a year where 3TR sat right in the route of flight with some of the cheapest gas in the country. In actual IFR pushing a flight 5hrs with only 64 gallons leaves less reserve then I would like to have. It is like anything in aviation what’s your mission and what best achieves that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOH Posted November 6, 2022 Report Share Posted November 6, 2022 50 minutes ago, M20F said: I just flew KJMS to KLZU and had to stop twice. I also do KLZU to KTOR. Often times of the years I can climb to FL190-210 and do 200+ knots on a leg of these trips making them non-stop with long range tanks. It is a long day however you slice it but beats having to get up/down multiple times and leverages my turbo. There is also tankering fuel which would have been nice looping between 47N and KDPA 2-3 times a month for a year where 3TR sat right in the route of flight with some of the cheapest gas in the country. In actual IFR pushing a flight 5hrs with only 64 gallons leaves less reserve then I would like to have. It is like anything in aviation what’s your mission and what best achieves that. My hat's off to you, and anyone, that can sit for that long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy95W Posted November 6, 2022 Report Share Posted November 6, 2022 4 hours ago, FlyingDude said: "The pursuit of happiness"... 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T. Peterson Posted November 6, 2022 Report Share Posted November 6, 2022 On 8/6/2022 at 4:26 PM, 1980Mooney said: In 2001 I had Monroy Long Range Tanks installed on my M20J Missile conversion. Lone Star Aero, the then respected MSC in San Antonio with lots of Monroy experience, did the install and billed me 55 hours (w/o speed brakes). That did not include additional hours for sight gauges or any tank repair or painting caps. With shop rates easily at $100/hr. in Texas (here is a shop in Grand Prairie, TX advertising $120/hr. regular rates for piston A&P https://www.jandgaviation.com/shop-rates-aircraftonground) install labor will cost $5,500 - 6,600. Add the $5,000 kit and tax ("tax friendly Texas" charges 6.25-8.25% sales tax on aviation parts and labor depending on the city). Total upgrade cost will likely be around $11,000 - 12,000. Speed brakes and inexperienced shops will likely increase install hours and cost. I think the good Lord has a real sense of humor exhibited in how different he made all of us humans! I would no more want extended fuel tanks than an extra hole in my head, but I am grateful the option is there for you iron butts and bladders! The same thing is evident in the motorcycle community. A former pastor I had was an avid rider and there were a few of us that went on an annual multi day trip. We referred to it as the Pastor’s ride as he was our leader and an absolutely wonderful human being. However, his enthusiasm for spending long hours in the saddle far exceeded the tolerances of some of the other riders. When I was on my first ride with the group, one of the fellas, Bob, who had been friends with our Pastor since High School asked me how long I liked to ride in a day. I tactfully replied that I was happy to ride until someone in the group got tired. Bob pointed at Pastor (Don) and said,” He wants to ride till someone in the group wants to kill him!” It was hilarious! Anyway, this post about extended fuel tanks brought back that wonderful memory. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingDude Posted November 6, 2022 Report Share Posted November 6, 2022 8 hours ago, Andy95W said: I’m gonna make a banner out of this and hang it in my hangar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mininger Posted November 6, 2022 Report Share Posted November 6, 2022 My goal, dream, fantasy, has always been to fly from Southeast FL to PR and just land. No TSA, no Customs. I know, I could do it with 64 gallons at 55%. But not with the margins that I'd be comfortable with. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingDude Posted November 6, 2022 Report Share Posted November 6, 2022 8 hours ago, T. Peterson said: He wants to ride till someone in the group wants to kill him! Reminds me of our first long trip, to Denver. Wife usually has a habit of announcing her bathroom needs when we’re cruising at decent (and legal!) speeds on the highway in the middle of nowhere, so I gave her an earful before taking off from in-laws’ city because making a stop over is tougher with a plane than a car . 2 hrs into the flight, my bladder pressure was rising, so we made a landing Wife just looked at me and smirked as I walked out of the bathroom lighter and happier… the 3rd leg of the trip after a fuel stop in WI (we had taken the long route over Michigan Upper Peninsula), the idea was to overnight somewhere in MN or NB etc. But the sunset was so romantic and then wife fell asleep, and we were already into the rising terrain zone. So I said “lets plow on” because I still had fuel thanks to the 84gl total. Wife woke up with the clicking of the Johnson bar during approach at KAPA. Ever since then she says that she was sleeping to pass time faster and that I kidnapped her and makes me text her our itineraries prior to take-off. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 6, 2022 Report Share Posted November 6, 2022 There is always a need for extra fuel… There is always a want for extra fuel… Some MSers do some really long solo flights…. Some Go to some really woodsy places…. Some don’t have good fuel instrumentation, extra fuel can cover for the lack of digital accuracy… Pre-1965 M20Cs… got less than 52gal. Where 52 gallons is never enough…. When your idea of a long X-Country actually includes crossing a long country…. 120 gallons is nice to have…. José pointed it out the best… When your flight includes a fuel stop…. The best speed mod is extended tanks! His second best speed mod… a pee tube! Now….if you can’t fly the time that the plane can…. It might be time to get some new foam in the chair…. José liked flying across the Atlantic doing ferry flights…. often included wiring a long range antenna for communications… Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urs_Wildermuth Posted November 6, 2022 Report Share Posted November 6, 2022 21 hours ago, MikeOH said: The STC makes a lot more sense for C/D/E models with 52 gal. tanks. They do indeed. I own a C and will think hard whether to do this. Here in Europe, things are also a bit less comfortable with Avgas supply, particularly in Southern Europe, where Jet A1 is the usual fuel found. There are places where there is either fuel or customs/immigration but not both. Having this kind of endurance would allow ops in a much more flexible way, without having to resort to 8 hour flights, but if you can fill up in one place, you can visit a few which don't have Avgas. Flying Greece or Italy would become a sight easier. The downside definitly is WnB. While the models up to the J have decent payload, with 36 additional USG on board they become de facto 2 seaters (if that much). But having them doesn't mean you need to fill them always. And looking at the payload of the Ovation and Acclaim airplanes, that is pretty much what you end up with Monroy tanks. A well equipped C could increase it's operational range from around 650-700NM to around 1200-1300 NM. That is quite a game changer indeed. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 6, 2022 Report Share Posted November 6, 2022 Adding a data point… 100gal with the IO550… Easy to travel 900nm without a fuel stop… NJ to FL… Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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