Pilot deviation. Hold for number!!

[ilovecornfields]

I was once vectored into another airplane less than a mile away. I went the opposite direction and said “If I had turned to that heading i would have hit the traffic.” There was no exchange of numbers.

Stuff happens. Controllers are human, too. As far as I know, as long as you didn’t intentionally violate the regs, no accident occurred, it’s not a presidential TFR and you haven’t used the immunity recently a NASA report is your “get out of jail free card.” Although I think my wife is onto me because she’s started asking “Why are you getting another letter from NASA?”

[EricJ]

One of our locals was told "cross mid-field at 500 ft..." after contacting tower, so he read that back and then did it.   I think they thought he was a helicopter, and when an airplane went buzzing across the field they asked him what he was doing.   He told them that's how he was cleared and he'd read it back.    Apparently never heard any more about it. 

 

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, bmcconnaha said:

one time i was almost vectered into a mountain.  It was VMC, i just responded unable, there is a mountain there.  I asked for a number, but it was mainly becasue she sounded attractive 

LOL, those are apples! 

[Bolter]

On 4/6/2022 at 11:48 AM, Shadrach said:

Once after departing KANP into the DC SFRA I could not get a word in edgewise on Freq. Two transmissions, both stepped on by others.  Shortly thereafter, the controller (who was expecting me) asked if I was on Freq and I immediately replied and explained that I had been trying to establish comms.  He said no problem and I thought that we were all good. Two sectors later before leaving the SFRA a different controller gives me an extended lecture on freq about establishing communication in the SFRA and how I had "deliberately" ignored the rules after departing KANP.  I was taken aback at first and then annoyed that the situation was being mischaracterized on frequency by someone who was not a witness to the actual incident.  I told him as much and asked for a phone number to further discuss. His tone changed and he said that there was no need as I need not worry about a violation. I said that I appreciated that but I still wanted a phone number.  He told me to standby.  He came back with a number a few moments later.   I landed, put the plane away and organized my thoughts ahead of the call.  When the other end picked up, I had a good laugh...The controller had given me the promo number for a Florida time share. I decided to leave well enough alone.

I had a similar situation with the SFRA when entering.  They mismanaged this ridiculous air space concept, and then blamed me for the problems.  

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, Bolter said:

I had a similar situation with the SFRA when entering.  They mismanaged this ridiculous air space concept, and then blamed me for the problems.  

I have flown in and out of the SFRA and the infamous DC 3 (inside the FRZ) for the last 15 years.  It is kind of quirky.  The basic  procedures are consistent, but there is variation from controller to controller and day to day.  I have been cleared VFR direct my destination both entering and departing the SFRA with no mention of the entry and exit gates filed.  I have asked for routing that was approved on one day and then treated like I was requesting to buzz the whitehouse when asking for it on a different day.  I've never had a serious problem with Potomac TRACON or Washington Center but will say they are the least accommodating control facilities on the East coast.  Washington Center has also forgotten about me without a hand off several times over the years.  I'm not saying the service is bad, I'm just saying they often take the opportunity to make ATL and NY look good.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Shadrach

[1964-M20E]

Flying home from SnF I was monitoring Jacksonville Center and heard those famous words for someone else.  NXXXXX advise when ready to copy a number for Possible pilot deviation.  The pilot did do it right just took the number and deal with it later.

 

[0TreeLemur]

On 4/5/2022 at 12:33 PM, NotarPilot said:

Whatever he did he may end up filling a NASA report in an attempt to protect himself, in which case if he does that report will be made public and searchable on the NASA website. This might give some insight to what happened.

https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov

Just so everyone knows, filing a NASA report will not save you from possible enforcement action after receiving Brasher warning.   Don't ask me how I know this.

[NotarPilot]

24 minutes ago, 0TreeLemur said:

Just so everyone knows, filing a NASA report will not save you from possible enforcement action after receiving Brasher warning.   Don't ask me how I know this.

Hence why I said, “…in an attempt to protect himself”. 

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

Just so everyone knows, filing a NASA report will not save you from possible enforcement action after receiving Brasher warning.   Don't ask me how I know this.

it is not intended to. A best, a NASA report protect against the penalty but not the violation.  And there are exceptions to that too. All written  in the rules and policies.

(you can ask me how I know )

[gacoon]

1 hour ago, midlifeflyer said:

it is not intended to. A best, a NASA report protect against the penalty but not the violation.  And there are exceptions to that too. All written  in the rules and policies.

(you can ask me how I know )

I,ll second that, if you make a mistake file a NASA report ASAp.  If what you did was not intentional it will keep a violation off your record.  

[ilovecornfields]

6 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

Just so everyone knows, filing a NASA report will not save you from possible enforcement action after receiving Brasher warning.   Don't ask me how I know this.

I was unaware of this. Do you know where this is stated? This was the only thing I could find on the NASA site:

Paragraph 9. c. FAA Advisory Circular No. 00-46F
c. Waiver of Imposition of Sanction. The FAA considers the filing of a report with NASA concerning an incident or occurrence involving a violation of 49 U.S.C. subtitle VII or the 14 CFR to be indicative of a constructive attitude. Such an attitude will tend to prevent future violations. Accordingly, although a finding of violation may be made, neither a civil penalty nor certificate suspension will be imposed if:
1. The violation was inadvertent and not deliberate;
2. The violation did not involve a criminal offense, accident, or action under 49 U.S.C. § 44709, which discloses a lack of qualification or competency, which is wholly excluded from this policy;
3. The person has not been found in any prior FAA enforcement action to have committed a violation of 49 U.S.C. subtitle VII, or any regulation promulgated there for a period of 5 years prior to the date of occurrence; and
4. The person proves that, within 10 days after the violation, or date when the person became aware or should have been aware of the violation, he or she completed and delivered or mailed a written report of the incident or occurrence to NASA.

[MikeOH]

30 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

I was unaware of this. Do you know where this is stated? This was the only thing I could find on the NASA site:

Paragraph 9. c. FAA Advisory Circular No. 00-46F
c. Waiver of Imposition of Sanction. The FAA considers the filing of a report with NASA concerning an incident or occurrence involving a violation of 49 U.S.C. subtitle VII or the 14 CFR to be indicative of a constructive attitude. Such an attitude will tend to prevent future violations. Accordingly, although a finding of violation may be made, neither a civil penalty nor certificate suspension will be imposed if:
1. The violation was inadvertent and not deliberate;
2. The violation did not involve a criminal offense, accident, or action under 49 U.S.C. § 44709, which discloses a lack of qualification or competency, which is wholly excluded from this policy;
3. The person has not been found in any prior FAA enforcement action to have committed a violation of 49 U.S.C. subtitle VII, or any regulation promulgated there for a period of 5 years prior to the date of occurrence; and
4. The person proves that, within 10 days after the violation, or date when the person became aware or should have been aware of the violation, he or she completed and delivered or mailed a written report of the incident or occurrence to NASA.

That is my understanding, as well.  I think the confusion is over 'enforcement action' vs. punishment.  Even with a filed NASA form they can still 'come after you' but the penalty will be waived.

[midlifeflyer]

6 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

I was unaware of this. Do you know where this is stated? This was the only thing I could find on the NASA site:

Paragraph 9. c. FAA Advisory Circular No. 00-46F
c. Waiver of Imposition of Sanction. The FAA considers the filing of a report with NASA concerning an incident or occurrence involving a violation of 49 U.S.C. subtitle VII or the 14 CFR to be indicative of a constructive attitude. Such an attitude will tend to prevent future violations. Accordingly, although a finding of violation may be made, neither a civil penalty nor certificate suspension will be imposed if:
1. The violation was inadvertent and not deliberate;
2. The violation did not involve a criminal offense, accident, or action under 49 U.S.C. § 44709, which discloses a lack of qualification or competency, which is wholly excluded from this policy;
3. The person has not been found in any prior FAA enforcement action to have committed a violation of 49 U.S.C. subtitle VII, or any regulation promulgated there for a period of 5 years prior to the date of occurrence; and
4. The person proves that, within 10 days after the violation, or date when the person became aware or should have been aware of the violation, he or she completed and delivered or mailed a written report of the incident or occurrence to NASA.

It's in the very first paragraph you quoted. 

"although a finding of violation may be made, neither a civil penalty nor certificate suspension will be imposed..."

IOW, yes, you can still be violated in an enforcement action. No, the sanction will not be imposed.

[midlifeflyer]

8 hours ago, gacoon said:

I,ll second that, if you make a mistake file a NASA report ASAp.  If what you did was not intentional it will keep a violation off your record.  

Point is, no it will not  keep a violation off your record. 
 

Let's  try this. As I discuss in my article, a "violation" is something that takes place after you get a letter from an FAA lawyer (not a FISDO) telling you you have violated the FAR and offering a penalty. And after you take your defense as far as you want to. It's the equivalent of being found guilty in a criminal court, whether after pleading guilty, being offered a deal, or exercising all your appeal rights. To continue the (adequate but not perfect) analogy, the effect of the NASA report is to give you a suspended sentence. Convicted, yes. Sent to jail or fined, no.

Timing-wise, it's usually part if the plea bargain with the FAA "prosecutor."