Anyone have a used out of spec no back spring I can buy?

[N201MKTurbo]

I went to an FAA seminar a few years ago. It was about getting a PMA. It didn't sound that hard. Reverse engineering is allowed. Getting this done isn't outside the realm of a normal human.

Last time we were talking about this I found a company that makes small lots of clutch springs for the aerospace industry. 

You would have to set up a company to hold the PMA and do all the FAA quality stuff, then get the spring company to make them for you.

If I was retired like I'm supposed to be I would give it a shot. But I was submarined by the new biotech startup. 

[cliffy]

The BIG Gorilla in the room-

Manufacturer's Insurance!!!!!!

How many pieces (market) vs cost of insurance?

Remember this is an airplane EVERYONE sues airplane manufacturers!

What does one gear up cost if "your" spring that you sold to someone breaks?

The only way around it as I see it is OPP (reverse engineer) WITH a DER then the liability slides to the owner who is part of the manufacturing process. 

[Sabremech]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I went to an FAA seminar a few years ago. It was about getting a PMA. It didn't sound that hard. Reverse engineering is allowed. Getting this done isn't outside the realm of a normal human.

Last time we were talking about this I found a company that makes small lots of clutch springs for the aerospace industry. 

You would have to set up a company to hold the PMA and do all the FAA quality stuff, then get the spring company to make them for you.

If I was retired like I'm supposed to be I would give it a shot. But I was submarined by the new biotech startup. 

It’s not too terrible getting a PMA. As a matter of fact, I’ll help someone to get their PMA by sharing my quality manual to cut down the time it takes you to make one. I just had my PMA audit for the umpteenth time and I don’t know if I’ll do anymore PMA’s. I just don’t know if the paperwork required is worth it. So if anyone wants to dive into the world of PMA parts, let me know and I’ll help you get started. 
sabremech at gmail.

Thanks,

David

[A64Pilot]

22 hours ago, cliffy said:

The BIG Gorilla in the room-

Manufacturer's Insurance!!!!!!

How many pieces (market) vs cost of insurance?

Remember this is an airplane EVERYONE sues airplane manufacturers!

What does one gear up cost if "your" spring that you sold to someone breaks?

The only way around it as I see it is OPP (reverse engineer) WITH a DER then the liability slides to the owner who is part of the manufacturing process. 

The way around that is the Corporation that owns the PMA has little to no assets, that makes them judgment proof.

Every couple of years a Corporate jet full of Lawyers lands in Moultrie Ga and travels to Maule as they plan to sue, they look around decide that Maule simply doesn’t have the assets to pay their bills and leaves. I’m nearly certain Maule doesn't have insurence, they can’t afford it.

That was always the joke, but it has actually happened.

If this spring is an overrunning clutch, it’s not a very good design, a sprag  clutch like a helicopter uses which is also what a Japanese motorcycle starter uses would have lasted forever, but Mon morning quarterbacking is easy.

[A64Pilot]

Hopefully Univair or another similar company will take notice and supply these springs, I can get all kinds of Cessna parts especially airframe parts from Univair. they keep aircraft like the 140 and Champs etc flying.

Take a look to see what I mean, Cessna and I think Piper are still in business

https://www.univair.com

Edited February 23, 2022 by A64Pilot

[N201MKTurbo]

So, a Univair, Laser or McFarlain would be perfect for this.

maybe somebody from Mooneyspace should call them and tell them there is an opportunity here.  

[Guest]

Wouldn’t it be easier to get together with Mooney for a bulk buy, so Mooney can approach Eaton to get a large enough order to interest Eaton.  Bypassing Mooney with a PMA, cuts whatever small profit they could get and surely need.

The last time this supply issue happened, I committed to 5 kits, I’m sure other MSC’s are the same.

Clarence

[A64Pilot]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Wouldn’t it be easier to get together with Mooney for a bulk buy, so Mooney can approach Eaton to get a large enough order to interest Eaton.  Bypassing Mooney with a PMA, cuts whatever small profit they could get and surely need.

The last time this supply issue happened, I committed to 5 kits, I’m sure other MSC’s are the same.

Clarence

Pretty sure Mooney only deals with their MSC’s.

I ordered a spring months ago from LASAR and was told they would put me on the list, meaning of course they already have a list, surely they and others have orders in with Mooney already, they have to have significant back orders?

But yes if everyone here who thinks they may need a spring ever, would place the order with an MSC, it couldn’t hurt, surely with enough orders to fill Mooney would order the springs.

Unless Eaton has them on credit hold? That’s not as uncommon as you would think.

I’m pretty sure to order direct from Eaton even if they would sell direct would require someone with a PMA as I doubt Eaton is selling an aircraft part.

Edited February 24, 2022 by A64Pilot

[ilovecornfields]

4 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Pretty sure Mooney only deals with their MSC’s.

I ordered a spring months ago from LASAR and was told they would put me on the list, meaning of course they already have a list, surely they and others have orders in with Mooney already, they have to have significant back orders?

But yes if everyone here who thinks they may need a spring ever, would place the order with an MSC, it couldn’t hurt, surely with enough orders to fill Mooney would order the springs.

Unless Eaton has them on credit hold? That’s not as uncommon as you would think.

I’m pretty sure to order direct from Eaton even if they would sell direct would require someone with a PMA as I doubt Eaton is selling an aircraft part.

I thought I was on the LASAR list as well but now they’re not returning my emails.

Maybe we can offer a prize for a replacement like the Beech guys do with the magnesium ruddervator?

[Guest]

3 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

I thought I was on the LASAR list as well but now they’re not returning my emails.

Maybe we can offer a prize for a replacement like the Beech guys do with the magnesium ruddervator?

We could offer a prize, but were talking about Mooney owners who are known for being thrifty with their money.  The prize would be far too small to attract interest.

Clarence 

[Hank]

I doubt Eaton us in the spring-making business. They likely outsource it to a spring maker, someone like Lee Springs.

[N201MKTurbo]

I don't see any clutch springs in Lee Springs catalog.

These guys would be a better choice:

https://www.asbg.com/products/springs-overview/torsion-springs-torque-coils-clutch-springs.aspx

or these guys:

https://rowleyspring.com/aerospace/

https://www.ctspring.com/industries/aerospace

http://www.fennellspring.com/products.html

http://www.orlandospring.com/

I could do this all day! Much easier than finding chips!

Rich...

[Marker89]

On 2/20/2022 at 3:00 AM, Guest said:

When they came available at Mooney my wife bought a few we needed to support my customer base.  I did not hoard them, although I could have just as easily bought every one that Mooney had in stock on that day, but I didn't.  

Everyone knows that they need one of these every 1000 hours.  Start planning ahead or support a shop who does.

Clarence

Afternoon Clarence 

 

Do you happen to have any available for a M20J Mooney serial: 24-1539? we are in need of one for a customer  

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, Marker89 said:

Afternoon Clarence 

 

Do you happen to have any available for a M20J Mooney serial: 24-1539? we are in need of one for a customer  

Clarence got pissed off with some of the people here last August and quit MooneySpace. He deleted his account and everything he could such as attachments.  His posts remain as “Guest”.  Your post to him is basically sending a message to the Dead letter office…

[Pinecone]

On 2/17/2022 at 5:55 PM, A64Pilot said:

I’m afraid I don’t have one, but if your going to get one made is it much more money for them to do a run of a dozen or so? Sometimes the setup etc is what takes time and time is money, the actual production can often be done quickly. I believe your correct on it being an Eaton.

What would that help?  He cannot sell them, as he doesn't have a PMA to do so.

And they are only an OPP for him.  Recall the issues with the J-bar lock blocks.

[Pinecone]

On 2/17/2022 at 6:28 PM, toto said:

I don't know anything about metallurgy, but didn't the whole NBS issue start because there was a small batch of bad springs?  Is there a way to have a shop make an OPP with confidence that it won't suffer the same fate?

(Asking because I have no idea -- can you test these things somehow?)

No, the bad springs came later, after the SB to change them.

IIRC, the spring maker screwed up and heat treated the springs before bending the tabs at the ends.  This lead to cracking and the tabs breaking off.

[cliffy]

IF someone gave a spring to a maker and had one made up as an OPP that might be able to qualify as OPP part

IF someone else did the same thing and the same maker made the part to the owners request that would also qualify as OPP

Just what day the part was made on might not be relevant

What can't  happen is the maker making many parts and ADVRTIZING THEM FOR SALE  without a PMA and/or owner's participation in the design process. 

Each part sold MUST come from an order that the owner participates in as required by the OPP regs

The owner HAS to participate in the process more than just plunk down money. 

There has to be a form of some sort provided by the owner specifying just what he wants made with his signature. A design drawing, a part to reverse engineer, the material to make the part , etc. 

Just like McFarland can make up throttle cables to OPP order yet they have all the parts in stock ready for the OPP participation order

Making up numbers of the part and then advertising them for sale can not be done

The process has to start with the owner. 

I know this is going to start a dumpster fire so my shields are up!

[2659AU]

In reading all of this post going back to 2022, it seems every Mooney owner has the same dilemma. Is this correct?  Basically, there are not any no-back springs available. Mooney themselves told one of our Australian Mooney owners A&P this week that they are not supporting.  We now have a number of Mooney owners here in Australia getting anxious and nervous.

[cliffy]

@2659AU   

Are you guys down there required to change the spring or only if it breaks?

[Fritz1]

I have a used functional spring, about 1500h on it that I took out of my Bravo two years ago, anybody AOG with a broken spring PM me. Knowing what I know now I would leave a functioning spring alone.

[toto]

Just now, Fritz1 said:

I have a used functional spring, about 1500h on it that I took out of my Bravo two years ago, anybody AOG with a broken spring PM me. Knowing what I know now I would leave a functioning spring alone.

I keep thinking that unless the plane is at a flight school with multiple landing cycles per hour, keeping the old spring is probably less risk than rolling the dice on a new one --- since you probably won't find out until hundreds of hours in that the new one wasn't made correctly and breaks catastrophically.

If we had a known-good source for springs, I would think differently about it.

[toto]

I also keep thinking that someone needs to figure out where to put the zip tie so the gear can be extended once in the event of a spring failure.  The whole broken-spring-takes-out-both-the-primary-and-backup-extension-mechanism thing seems pretty meh to me.

[Fritz1]

I took the spring out with Brian Kendrick, we were both ambivalent about it, eventually decided to do it anyhow because the new spring was sitting there and paid for. The way I remember the mechanism is that you can put load on the landing gear with the emergency extension mechanism even with the no back spring broken. I million $ question is how do you know it is broken, maybe it makes some noise in the actuator when turning. Would be interesting to hear from somebody who actually had a broken spring and landed with it one way or the other.

[toto]

12 minutes ago, Fritz1 said:

I took the spring out with Brian Kendrick, we were both ambivalent about it, eventually decided to do it anyhow because the new spring was sitting there and paid for. The way I remember the mechanism is that you can put load on the landing gear with the emergency extension mechanism even with the no back spring broken. I million $ question is how do you know it is broken, maybe it makes some noise in the actuator when turning. Would be interesting to hear from somebody who actually had a broken spring and landed with it one way or the other.

I’ve heard people describe a clicking sound that told them the spring was failing. I have no idea whether that’s a real thing.

Also anecdotally it seems that the spring is more likely to fail on retraction than extension, so normally it fails when you select gear up and they just stay down until you get the spring replaced. 

I have no personal experience with this, so ymmv

 

[Aerodon]

5 hours ago, cliffy said:

IF someone gave a spring to a maker and had one made up as an OPP that might be able to qualify as OPP part

IF someone else did the same thing and the same maker made the part to the owners request that would also qualify as OPP

Just what day the part was made on might not be relevant

What can't  happen is the maker making many parts and ADVRTIZING THEM FOR SALE  without a PMA and/or owner's participation in the design process. 

Each part sold MUST come from an order that the owner participates in as required by the OPP regs

The owner HAS to participate in the process more than just plunk down money. 

There has to be a form of some sort provided by the owner specifying just what he wants made with his signature. A design drawing, a part to reverse engineer, the material to make the part , etc. 

Just like McFarland can make up throttle cables to OPP order yet they have all the parts in stock ready for the OPP participation order

Making up numbers of the part and then advertising them for sale can not be done

The process has to start with the owner. 

I know this is going to start a dumpster fire so my shields are up!

There are some parts that are reasonable for OPP.  An owner can give enough information to 'participate' in the process for things like electrical cables, control cables, baffles, pedal extensions, certain airframe parts etc.  Something like this NBS?  It is going to be questioned.  And this is a huge liability issue for the person that either provides enough information for it to be made, or the person who makes it. The FAA and Mooney are watching.  Once the word is out there that there is a batch of homemade springs, the next thing is there will be an AD to have them removed, grounding all the planes and no alternate in sight.   Who wants to be on the receiving end of the phone call from the FAA or insurance company for the first plane that does a wheels up because it failed sometime in the next 18 years?

I have no solution, but I am on the same page as @Cliffy, and the others waiting for a proper solution.

 

Aerodon