Tsio-360MB surefly fit question

[Will.iam]

A&P says surefly when mounted interferes with installing the vacuum pump. Anybody have a surefly on a TSIO-360MB with a vacuum pump installed can you shed some light on how you got them both mounted? I think @kortopates has a surefly but i think he had his vacuum system removed. I was planning on getting my vacuum system removed next annual as I don’t have the money for a gi-275 upgrade at this time

 

[kortopates]

5 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

A&P says surefly when mounted interferes with installing the vacuum pump. Anybody have a surefly on a TSIO-360MB with a vacuum pump installed can you shed some light on how you got them both mounted? I think @kortopates has a surefly but i think he had his vacuum system removed. I was planning on getting my vacuum system removed next annual as I don’t have the money for a gi-275 upgrade at this time

 

I still have my vacuum pump for my speed brakes and don't have any interference there.  But you could have a different perhaps bigger pump. Mine is a Tempest. What side is he installing the Surefly on?

[Will.iam]

The right side or co-pilot side. The side that is alot harder to get to the mag on especially with intercooler and one of the biggest reasons i wanted on that side so after it’s setup, i shouldn’t have to deal with it in that tighter space. 
is your tempest pump smaller than factory? Do you have a picture of your installation by chance?

[kortopates]

Do you have the dual alternator option (like me) - which is a different starter adapter than the single alternator option.

But the single alternator option starter adapter used on the 231's have the vacuum pump on top- way out of way!

Bear with me, I won't have time to look for a picture for another day or two.


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[Will.iam]

18 hours ago, kortopates said:

Do you have the dual alternator option (like me) - which is a different starter adapter than the single alternator option.

But the single alternator option starter adapter used on the 231's have the vacuum pump on top- way out of way!

Bear with me, I won't have time to look for a picture for another day or two.


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Yes it’s dual alternator. Here are pics from dugosh. 
first pic is with surefly mounted. 
second pic is clearance issue with the vacuum pump. 
third pic if he rotates / indexes the surefly to give enough room to mount then the stud mount hits the case of the surefly. He tried screwing the stud mount further in as there are some threads left on the base bolt but said it’s in there tight and would have to heat up the base mount which he would prefer not to do. His suggestion is to cut down the top of the stud so the surefly has clearance with a thinner nut and lock washer on the bolt. One other option is to flip 180 the surefly but then the 2nd alternator bracket is in the way and he would have to modify that. Also he said the 180 degree option has the wires crunched up getting past the bracket or something like that. A picture of how yours is installed would sure help him to see what is the hold up and it might simply be your stud bolt is screwed into your mount base more than mine. 

[kortopates]

Hi @Will.iam,

Its certainly not an easy install on this engine and I'll confess after my first hour or two on it I really thought there was a good chance I would be boxing it back up to return it. But it does fit if one keeps at it. I see your stud is even worse as there are still coarse threads that should be in the case and not protruding but I agree with your mechanic its not worth risking cracking the case there from getting too agressive trying to screw it in at this point so I just filed it down a few thousandths - I only needed take off a couple thousandths off and I had to switch from TCM style lockwashers to Lycoming style thinner start washers. Perhaps if he switches to thinner nut he can keep the TCM lockwashers but I went with changing the lock washer style instead - can't say if one method is really any better than the other. I even cleaned up the U shaped retainer to to get another thousandth as it wasn't entirely still smooth after lots of prior torquing. When it was in, I measured .003" clearance between the stud and body of the Surefly which I arbitrarily deemed sufficient and although you can't tell from the picture the stud is protruding above the nut. 

Of course it goes without saying I had to reclock the TDC on the internal mag drive gear, but it was only a couple teeth CW to the right (as shown in first photo). Being that little I didn't have any issues with the Cap wires. But if I did, I would have simply pulled the cap and wires out to re-rotate their paths to avoid any excessive twisting at the cap - a bit time consuming for sure but not difficult.  

3rd  photo shows clearnaces on the other side from alternator - which was really main main issue - as there is very little room to rotate to time properly. The blue shroud is covering the Vacuum pump in second and 4th picture upper left hand corner.

 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by kortopates

[Will.iam]

15 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Hi @Will.iam,

Its certainly not an easy install on this engine and I'll confess after my first hour or two on it I really thought there was a good chance I would be boxing it back up to return it. But it does fit if one keeps at it. I see your stud is even worse as there are still coarse threads that should be in the case and not protruding but I agree with your mechanic its not worth risking cracking the case there from getting too agressive trying to screw it in at this point so I just filed it down a few thousandths - I only needed take off a couple thousandths off and I had to switch from TCM style lockwashers to Lycoming style thinner start washers. Perhaps if he switches to thinner nut he can keep the TCM lockwashers but I went with changing the lock washer style instead - can't say if one method is really any better than the other. I even cleaned up the U shaped retainer to to get another thousandth as it wasn't entirely still smooth after lots of prior torquing. When it was in, I measured .003" clearance between the stud and body of the Surefly which I arbitrarily deemed sufficient and although you can't tell from the picture the stud is protruding above the nut. 

Of course it goes without saying I had to reclock the TDC on the internal mag drive gear, but it was only a couple teeth CW to the right (as shown in first photo). 3rd  photo shows clearnaces on the other side from alternator - which was really main main issue - as there is very little room to rotate to time properly. The blue shroud is covering the Vacuum pump in second and 4th picture upper left hand corner.

and being that little I didn't have any issues with the Cap wires. But if I did, I would have simply pulled the cap and wires out to re-rotate their paths to avoid any excessive twisting at the cap - a bit time consuming for sure but not difficult.  

 

Thank you sooo much this is excellent help especially the pictures. 

[carusoam]

Paul deserves the awesome MSer award today!

Great pics!

Great explanation!

Great technical background!

Great to have as part of the conversation!

GO MS!

Best regards,

-a-

[Will.iam]

Well the electronics glitched when the A&P was doing engine run testing and heard the relay click when the intruments went blank. He says its a weak component in the M20K’s and it’s way back behind the circuit breaker panel. Problem is that relay is no longer made and i need to get a  relay kit which is 12-14 weeks lead time to get. And to replace it it’s hard to get to. Has any other M20k owners had to replace this relay and know of a place to get one quicker than 12 weeks. Heard the price is about $2k for the relay kit? Is that correct?

[kortopates]

14 hours ago, Will.iam said:

Well the electronics glitched when the A&P was doing engine run testing and heard the relay click when the intruments went blank. He says its a weak component in the M20K’s and it’s way back behind the circuit breaker panel. Problem is that relay is no longer made and i need to get a  relay kit which is 12-14 weeks lead time to get. And to replace it it’s hard to get to. Has any other M20k owners had to replace this relay and know of a place to get one quicker than 12 weeks. Heard the price is about $2k for the relay kit? Is that correct?

Sorry to hear but which relay? For example the starter relay back by the co-pilots feet. Which relay and part no if your able? Master switch relay?

Does this mean he has the Surefly in and working?

Edited October 10, 2021 by kortopates

[Will.iam]

Surefly in and working great. Everything on plane good except the relay. I think he said it was the battery relay. 

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, Will.iam said:

Surefly in and working great. Everything on plane good except the relay. I think he said it was the battery relay. 

This one is STC'd to work as a battery master in an M20K.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/skytec07-03565.php?clickkey=35605

 

[kortopates]

Surefly in and working great. Everything on plane good except the relay. I think he said it was the battery relay. 

battery relay is in avionics bay by battery.
good news on the surefly!
lance gave you an option for a master relay above.


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[carusoam]

Knowing which relay is the one the mechanic is describing… may be important to going forwards…

1) Master relay, connects power to all systems…

2) Avionics relay, turns on the avionics, By having its power removed…

3) starter relay, activates the starter motor…

4) Battery relay, selects either Battery#1 or Battery#2 in a two battery system…

5) So many smaller relays get used to activate small motors like the flaps…

6) getting the right relays seems to be extra challenging lately…  dialing many MSCs for parts on the shelf is becoming a sport…

About finding a used / pre-flown relay from a two battery Mooney… be on the lookout for wrecked M20Ks or possibly LBs…

@Chrigi may have a battery relay…from an M20R…
 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

[Will.iam]

Well with David going on vacation, I got Brian Kendrick to look at the relay problem.  He said the new relay was a higher current relay but also way bigger and there is just no space to put it in the same location.  He suggested to change the Avionics switch to a circuit breaker switch and get rid of the relay all together, thus saving space, and if and when the switch goes out, Much easier to replace with another switch on the panel and not have to dig back behind the circuit breaker panel.  He got it knocked out in 2 days with parts and labor $700.  So plane is finally done but, I can't go get it until Oct 20 as I have prior commitments everyday until then, hopefully the weather will be nice on the 20th as my birthday is on the 21th and again I have plans that day and I would like to get my plane back before my birthday.

[Will.iam]

Got my plane back. I’ve heard after an annual sometimes there are issues when you go to pick it up. Well on mag check when I when to the surefly on the right side the engine would die. So obviously it wasn’t working. This was perplexing until you think what was the last thing done to it since it was working and that would be the relay removal. Some where in that process the hot battery wire to the surefly found ground and blew the 10a fuse. Took Dugosh awhile to find another 10A fuse but when we installed a new one the surefly worked. With Dugosh sealing baffle walls that had gaps to the engine in the back as well as increasing my fuel flow to 25gph max for takeoff my CHT’s where nice and low 340 on climb out if I slowed to 90 Kias climb 360 was max cht. This is a huge improvement over my 400 cht at 100 Kias with 385 at 120 Kias this past summer. With finally getting a fuel flow recordings on my jpi-711 I finally got to see my gami spread which is at .8 since gami sent me all same size injectors they are swapping me out 2 injectors that will hopefully bring the spread under .2. 

[Will.iam]

Oh i forgot to report on the new surefly 2.0V  I’m happy to report that the new voltage regulator so far is working great AND when i switch from left mag to surefly it does not cause a studder or backfire on the mag check so it seems they fixed the startup delay on surefly as well. I do have some radio static that is RPM dependent that i didn’t have before but it is only on the garmin 530w comm and only on receiving end as the sending of transmissions to ATC from what i have been told by ATC have been clear. But my BK -165 radio is crystal clear both in transmission and receiving. So maybe something got bumped in the relay removal process. I have not experienced the higher egt or cht issue of installing a surefly but mine is set at fixed timing and i got my fuel flow increased and baffeling sealed better so my CHT’s are lower than what they were before the install. The power of excess fuel to cool. 

[carusoam]

On 10/10/2021 at 3:19 PM, LANCECASPER said:

This one is STC'd to work as a battery master in an M20K.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/skytec07-03565.php?clickkey=35605

 

Starting a new thread where Lance’s details are probably the right answer…  for a different plane and different application…

Best regards,

-a-

[terbang]

My A&P and I just installed a SureFly in my Encore converted 252, so I can add another data point here. I don’t have a vacuum pump anymore and therefore it was a rather easy installation. I was able to rotate the SureFly in such a way that neither of the nuts is under the ‘big end‘ of the housing. The bolts would have been too long for that with my engine as well.

I have the newest version of the SureFly (I think it’s revision F) and it really works like a charm. No backfire on mag check at all. I only flew it for an hour today but this flight was completely uneventful.

 

[Pinecone]

Please provide an update on any performance gains or loses.

I am considering a SureFly for my 252/Encore at some point.  No vacuum system so install should be OK

[Ragsf15e]

4 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Please provide an update on any performance gains or loses.

I am considering a SureFly for my 252/Encore at some point.  No vacuum system so install should be OK

You’re not gonna see much (any) difference in a turbo as the sf is set to fixed timing just like the mags. Possible it might improve starting, but it’s subtle.

[kortopates]

5 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Please provide an update on any performance gains or loses.

I am considering a SureFly for my 252/Encore at some point.  No vacuum system so install should be OK

By far #1 is more reliability in the Surefly over a pressurized Slick (A few MB's have Bendix that perform a bit better, but very few)

A distant #2 is slightly improved ignition resiliency to LOP ops; meaning the ability to go a bit deeper LOP

[terbang]

Yes, I don’t expect a performance or efficiency gain. Temps were normal on the flight yesterday. As said, it was short and I didn’t get very high, so I can’t tell much yet. However, startup was really excellent.

I forgot to mention: I’ve an E.I. MVP50 installed. A .1uF inline capacitor works perfectly for the connection of the SureFly‘s simulated P-lead to the MVP.

[Pinecone]

I understand not big gains due to no timing change.

 

But better LOP operation is a very good thing.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, terbang said:

Yes, I don’t expect a performance or efficiency gain. Temps were normal on the flight yesterday. As said, it was short and I didn’t get very high, so I can’t tell much yet. However, startup was really excellent.

I forgot to mention: I’ve an E.I. MVP50 installed. A .1uF inline capacitor works perfectly for the connection of the SureFly‘s simulated P-lead to the MVP.

Is that Karl Heinz’s former Mooney?