Minnesota Crash

[carusoam]

Interesting time stamp difference on the last line…

Reporting 6pm then stating 5pm in local time… 6:48 vs. 5:48

Last whole piece of flight data… adjusted by the hour… 5:39:36…

Time in the frame from the video…  5:40.06

 

 

Keep in mind the data rate leaves giant spaces…. Data is reported every 15 seconds sometimes… near a minute the next time…

-a-

[carusoam]

Double check that audio…

Possible health issues… similar to CO poisoning….

I can understand ATC clearly…

ATC Is asking if the pilot needs assistance…

The pilot is difficult for me to understand… (I have some hearing challenges…)

He is slow in response… and not on altitude… while cleared to land…

Mooneys don’t break up even in much tougher environments…

The wing is broken in the middle….

But doesn’t empty the fuel tanks until impact….

Being below maneuvering speed usually assures the wing to stay in tact… so the wing stalls before it breaks…

Some things that are worth looking into… 

Yikes… and prayers…

-a-

[Urs_Wildermuth]

The pics with the folded wings are scary. Afaik no Mooney ever experienced this kind of wing failure. This may well spell a major safety issue akin the wing sep of the Piper Arrow in FLA a couple of years ago. 

Too early for any conclusions obviously but these pics have me very much concerned. 

 

[ArtVandelay]

Could corrosion cause the wing spar to collapse? 

Are we sure it didn’t clip tree tops or power lines?

[V1VRV2]

I don’t know if they had already snapped in the previous frame or snapped between frames but they both snapped in the exact same location by this frame. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by V1VRV2

[Airways]

Looks like they snapped at the very last moment before impact. I don’t think the aircraft would pancake like that if the wingspar already broke midair.

[KSMooniac]

In the frame grab right before impact, I think the wing is blocking the rear window... We should be able to see it with the plane in that attitude.

I cannot imagine how that happened without hitting something prior to the ground. I hope there is enough left to analyze.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk

[David Lloyd]

Wing?  What about the horizontal stab?  Is it the angleofn the picture is straight on?  

[LANCECASPER]

The airplane belonged to Dr. James Edney, a 72 year old surgical oncologist from Omaha NE. https://health.usnews.com/doctors/james-edney-7291

It looks like he has owned the airplane since 2012.

[Davidv]

5 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

What does he say right after "Roger"?  He sounds incoherent.  Then no response to tower as he makes the S-turns although tower keeps calling him.

Confusion from CO poisoning?

Tough to say, I found the actual ATC recording and the timing mirrors the one posted to youtube.  I think this was some that had started prior to the check in with tower or he was impaired in some way.  Just a very odd exchange, "Tower umm...checking in", then miss 3 landing clearances, and respond by saying "go ahead tower".  Any pilot who isn't a student would expect instructions immediately after checking in with tower. It's not an enroute check in where you get a "welcome" and altimeter setting.

I also heard the controller speaking with the king air that landed in front of him and there wasn't any warning of weather on final.

[Candy man]

First off thoughts and prayers to all involved and affected by this horrible event. All accidents in the aviation community hit close to home, and in the Mooney community it feels like it’s next door.

I’m not hear to question how it happened or second guess the pilot, I hate when we do that.

I do have 2 questions, the first I ask out of ignorance. I thought carbon monoxide issues where a winter thing when using cabin heat? I know it’s Minnesota, but I fly to northern Michigan  all summer and don’t use heat even at 11,000.

Second question; the second picture with the bent wings, is it possible that moment was captured after a bounce? I have no idea I’ve never heard of both wings, or either wing in a Mooney doing that, and I can’t imagine power lines caused that.

Again, prayers to all involved.

Lawrence 

[jlunseth]

He was right on the button for one of the approaches into FCM until the last few seconds of the flight. Intercept altitude is 2700 or 2800 depending on which approach and the RNAV 10L allows descent to 2100 in that area, the others keep you at 2700. The field is 906 and there is not much in the way of terrain out west, where he was.  Clearly from his contact with tower something was going on, health or distraction in the cockpit. He had to be on approach at some point, it was hard IMC all day yesterday (and still is as I write this). However, the flight track was deviating slightly left of course - about 400 - 600 yards, then trying to return to course, then turning 180 due north away from the approach course in the last moments. Could have been a cell on the approach course he was trying to avoid, and heavy turbulence, but if there was, ATC or FCM tower would already have warned him.

There would have been no bounce, there are trees and structures on the other side of that street that the plane came from, he would have hit something. I just walked that street a little over a week ago and had dinner about two blocks left of where the plane ended up.

Yes, thoughts and prayers to everyone involved. 

[A64Pilot]

More pure speculation, but often when someone is overcome by events, like trying to deal with a difficult problem, they load shed less important actions, like maybe talking on the radio.

‘If the aircraft were failing structurally, he may have been struggling for control, and only partially paying attention to the radio.

‘Some of you smarter people with computers than I am, how old was the aircraft, and was there a 337 in the past for serious structural repair? I don’t see wires or a pole braking both wings, and leaving the aircraft still pointed in direction of flight.

There will I’m certain be enough left to analyze 

Edited August 8, 2021 by A64Pilot

[Dmax]

4 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

In the frame grab right before impact, I think the wing is blocking the rear window... We should be able to see it with the plane in that attitude.

I cannot imagine how that happened without hitting something prior to the ground. I hope there is enough left to analyze.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk
 

 

[Dmax]

It looks like both wings are folded up. I had two friends killed several years ago when they encountered a thunderstorm over Monroe La. N577RS. NTSB said it receives 24 g’s and broke wing in half right in the middle. Both wings folded up  and both horizontals on tail. 

[ArtVandelay]

He may have been on autopilot and problems began after it was disengaged.
If in a steep descent (1000+ ft/min) and you yank back on the yoke in panic, how many Gs could be created? Anyone have a sim with G meter?

[A64Pilot]

It was a 92 model, my swag is corrosion is much less likely in such a new airframe.

I would say thunderstom turbulence as T storms have even torn up Century series fighters and even Scott Crossfield couldn’t survive a T storm penetration when he was vectored into one, and if he couldn’t no one can.

‘But that video seems to indicate the wings folded just prior to impact, and the aircraft seems to be in a stalled attitude, but no spin, so the nose up wasn’t prolonged?

[A64Pilot]

3 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

He may have been on autopilot and problems began after it was disengaged.
If in a steep descent (1000+ ft/min) and you yank back on the yoke in panic, how many Gs could be created? Anyone have a sim with G meter?

The Sim is going to show you what’s it’s programmed to, not necessarily even close to reality.

G is airspeed dependent, we proved for example that on an S2R-H80 even at gross weight if you stayed within the VNE, the wings couldn’t generate enough lift to break themselves, but if you were going fast enough, then certainly.

[skykrawler]

9 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

More pure speculation, but often when someone is overcome by events, like trying to deal with a difficult problem, they load shed less important actions, like maybe talking on the radio.

‘If the aircraft were failing structurally, he may have been struggling for control, and only partially paying attention to the radio.

‘Some of you smarter people with computers than I am, how old was the aircraft, and was there a 337 in the past for serious structural repair? I don’t see wires or a pole braking both wings, and leaving the aircraft still pointed in direction of flight.

There will I’m certain be enough left to analyze 

Exactly.   IMHO if a (single) pilot is struggling it doesn't help to have a controller badger you for a response.   Aviate, navigate, communicate.  Isn't that the priority?

I wonder if the video frame is an artifact of the camera and a high speed object.  It's also possible that a sudden pitch up to where the flight path angle is normal to the belly could overstress the wing.  The FAA will eventually conclude the primary cause is a loss of control.  They may never find a secondary cause.

[Davidv]

5 minutes ago, skykrawler said:

Exactly.   IMHO if a (single) pilot is struggling it doesn't help to have a controller badger you for a response.   Aviate, navigate, communicate.  Isn't that the priority?

I wonder if the video frame is an artifact of the camera and a high speed object.  It's also possible that a sudden pitch up to where the flight path angle is normal to the belly could overstress the wing.  The FAA will eventually conclude the primary cause is a loss of control.  They may never find a secondary cause.

Yes, that's correct, but I don't think anyone is criticizing his radio calls (or at least that was not my intention).  I had said above that the radio calls appear to be indicative of him trying to troubleshoot some sort of issue or possibly some other physical impairment.  In any case, I'm sure the NTSB will review them in detail along with the wreckage and timeline to see if it leads them anywhere.

[jlunseth]

The tower controllers at FCM are just exceptional, I fly with them nearly everyday. Over several years I have listened to them deal professionally with all manner of unusual situations, including me on one or two occasions, and I have found myself in extreme turbulence on final there from which that tower quickly rescued me. I am going to speculate that tower called two or three times in succession at the end of that tape because it had just lost the aircraft off the scope. They were trying to help. 

[A64Pilot]

I’m hoping video artifact as well, like you see on a prop?

If the wings failed. I’m certain that the NTSB will find that very quickly, they are very meticulous.

 

Oh, and to expand on an earlier question about CO poisoning being heater related, yes it’s probably more likely if a muffler has a crack when the heat is on, but exhaust leaks very often occur outside of the heat shroud and you can get CO poisoning at any time of year, heat on or off.

A good CO meter is possibly a lifesaver, I need to get off of my butt and get one myself, before you guys read about me.

Edited August 8, 2021 by A64Pilot

[carusoam]

Note on wing stress: below maneuvering speed, the wing will stall before it gets damaged… a design criteria of GA airplanes… approach to the airport appears to be pretty safely below maneuvering speed…

 

Note for @Candy man on CO, not just a winter heat issue, in turbo charged airplanes… the exhaust system is under a lot of stress under normal conditions of use. The Bravo has seen thinning of the exhaust tubes between the engine and turbo, and it has the V-band clamps that have been known to fail after accidental re-use…

Couldn’t ask for better response from the community… Many people running in to help out…

-a-

[bradp]

Condolences to the families involved.  
 

I really hope we don’t have to have another conversation about partial panel and adequacy of backup attitude indications. 
 

Old pic but appears to be the accident aircraft.  

[Bartman]

First of all this is a tragedy and there may have been a medical or workload issue. My condolences to the family and friends. 
 

I am convinced the appearance of the wings is an artifact brought about by capture rate and the speed of decent. If you look closely at the tail there are two images superimposed. There are two stripes and one elongated tail.