What is your A&P relationship like?

[1980Mooney]

4 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Some woud have just jacked your price to what the Cirrus guys are paying, way I see it he did you a favor by telling you he couldn’t take your work anymore.

I am not sure that I follow your point.  When you say "Cirrus guys" do you mean the plane owners or Cirrus Aircraft Co.? I was paying the same shop rate as that A&P was charging Cirrus, Beech, Cessna and Piper owners for hourly repairs.  He has lots of Cirrus work.  He said a lot is on a maintenance contract plan and some is warranty.  So the Cirrus guys (owners) are paying nothing for the work done on warranty (Cirrus Aircraft Co. pays).  And I am not familiar with the pricing or structure of the maintenance plans. He has more work than mechanics so he had to make a business decision on what to cut.  He decided that his future is with a company that is building and delivering the most planes and provides complete factory support.  The Cirrus planes are newer on average than most other brands.  There appears to be a lot of similarity amongst the Cirrus lines so there may be greater efficiency for this A&P providing services.  Perhaps his profits are higher on his Cirrus work.  Let's face it - 40-50 Mooney's have undergone lots of mods making each one a bit different to work on.  My Missile mod is at the extreme end.  I don't take it personally - like I said he made a business decision that favors Cirrus work over others including Mooney.

If he wanted to do me a favor, he could have told me in February that he was not going to be able to take my plane at the end of March when the annual expired.  Maybe he thought he was going to hire another mechanic by then so he held off and stalled on telling me until late April when the situation was hopeless.  Then I had to find another A&P and wait to get an opening in their schedule.  The new A&P asked for and got my plane this past Monday .... they are telling me that they might start on it this Friday.  Let's hope.

Edited May 20, 2021 by 1980Mooney

[Raymond J1]

How to rank in this survey a very good relationship with his A&P despite not being able to do the job because the Mooney house almost no longer exists ?

[Betty_the_Mooney]

8 hours ago, Ned Gravel said:

Fellow Canuck:

Missed the one that characterises mine with Clarence.  He puts up with me.  He stays ahead of issues when he knows about them. He sometimes lets me help.  He is the single most competent aircraft mechanic I know.  He never, ever accepts second best.  

It is never about him making me feel good as a customer, it is always about him taking his responsibilities for our safety seriously.  Always.  Can’t buy that.  Such approaches are not normally for sale.

I could not ask for better.  

 

Good points. I hope he also occasionally returns your call, or is easy to work with when making decisions about what to do and when, or can communicate clearly what work is being done/is not, or timelines, or other such niceties. There are many A&Ps who keep our planes safe - but not all of them take the time to treat the pilot as a valued customer. Definitely the safety factor is item #1. For those of us who live near a few high-quality, safety-minded A&Ps, we then next ask ourselves, "what's the 2nd, and 3rd, and 4th thing I value here?" Those are the experiences I think lots of folks are talking about here. (For some, the options are so limited, we take safety and accept no bedside manner. For others, it sounds like there are a few high-caliber options within a short Mooney flight away, and so people also look for an A&P who runs a good quality business too.)

[drapo]

Relationships are two-way streets, so I guess you also have to work on it a little bit on your side! Meaning, know your plane and it's system and take notes or photos when you want to share a problem with your A&P.

My AME (I guess it's Canadian for A&P) isn't the cheapest, off the F150 kind, he's a professional and he left a Big company to work on his own account. It was important to me that I wasn't considered a number by him, so we exchanged a little before I decided to trust him to my Mooney. For sure, he had a learning curve and I probably paid a little part of it, but I trusted him and after 10 annuals and lots of upgrades to the airplane, he and his staffers know the plane and his shop has taken up a few Mooney's in the area as customers. We went through some tough (read expen$ive) decisions along my ownership years, but he has always kept me informed on pros and cons or alternatives.  On my side, I took care lots of details, like contacting overhaul shops for engine, prop and equipments and even shopping for parts and pieces so he could concentrate on his specialty. 

In the end, my plane is one of the best kept Mooney around and I still have a good relationship with my AME 

[Yetti]

And then there is the time I asked the AP to change the mechanical fuel pump.   He laughed and said maybe I should do it.    Not sure if that is trust or he is not a fan of working on Mooneys.   I also thinks he undercharges for annuals.   with a "You did most of the work"  so then I have to write the check for 100 more than the bill.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Yetti

[gsxrpilot]

Its important not to get off on the wrong foot with your A&P. There aren't a surplus of good ones and they're all over booked. So get the relationship started right. 

IMO the easiest way to start off wrong, is to start with an annual. Rather, start with an oil change. Start the relationship off with small well defined jobs. That way the +/- or the over/under is measured in Ben Franklin's and not in AMU's

Once you get to know each other... assuming all is still trending in the right direction, handing the bird over for an annual is like consummating the relationship.

[Oldguy]

My A&P/IA have a great relationship. With 35+ years of Mooney maintenance under his belt, he can point out things to me I would take hours to find. I know he will take care of my plane without taking any shortcuts, charge me fairly, and deliver on the schedule we set. For my part, I always make sure I pay him the instant I receive an invoice (and sometimes have to ask for one) and deliver a kilo of Colombian coffee when I come back from my trips down south. 

[1980Mooney]

I think that the relationships with A&P's in the future will 

• take longer
• be more expensive
• it will be harder to find good support and some may have to travel further to get it
• many will retire and few new will enter the market

In the last 22 years I have had one A&P retire on me and the other let me go because he doesn't have the capacity to provide me service any longer.  I suspect that I will be paying more with the latest one.

 Everyone is missing the big picture - Fixed Wing Piston is a shrinking business.

Look at the latest FAA Forecast 2020-2040 for General Aviation

 

The number of Fixed Wing Piston has been dropping steadily.  About 160,000 in 2010 forecast to drop to about 120,000 in 2040.

Look at the Population of A&P's per FAA Airman Certificates - it has dropped about 10% for "Mechanic" and "Repairman" categories from 2010 to current 2020 even though the number of commercial aircraft has grown.  The General Aviation A&P's have a harder time competing for their share of this shrinking pool of talent/mechanics.  And the ones in commercial, if going from large to small will likely stick with turbine aircraft - not piston.

We are in a market that will see consolidation - manufacturing and service.  It will be harder to attract capital and people.

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by 1980Mooney

[steingar]

I go to Bob Norman of Norman Aviation Zanesville Ohio.  He knows everything and can fix near anything.  

[Guest]

On 5/19/2021 at 11:11 AM, JimB said:

I am my A&P/IA/Avionics guy/oil changer/aircraft cleaner/fueler.  So yes...me, myself and I have a pretty amazing relationship. Not sure how good of advice I give myself though. There was this one time back in the 80s when I told myself "That girl is beautiful", you should go buy her a drink! Woke up the next morning and was pretty disappointed with that advice....

I think I can best that.  Mine bought me a nice house, feeds me everyday, buys me all the beer I want, sends me on vacation, bought me a number of really nice airplanes to fly and pays for all of the fuel and maintenance just because he’s a nice guy.  Even lets me sleep with his wife, what a guy!

Clarence

[Tom 4536]

Why is it so difficult to get maintenance done? Is the number of repair facilities decreasing at a higher rate than number of GA aircraft? In January I had to give a $1000 deposit to reserve a spot for my April annual. Wilmer can’t seal my fuel tanks until September 2022 and Don Maxwell hasn’t responded to emails or phone calls. This seems to be the norm and makes it difficult to keep the planes flying.

[JimB]

22 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

I think I can best that.  Mine bought me a nice house, feeds me everyday, buys me all the beer I want, sends me on vacation, bought me a number of really nice airplanes to fly and pays for all of the fuel and maintenance just because he’s a nice guy.  Even lets me sleep with his wife, what a guy!

Clarence

Yep! You win!! Mine rarely lets me sleep with his wife!! 

[JimB]

This is a great poll. As an A&P I am very glad that almost 70% feel that have a good or amazing relationship with the guy or gal they trust to work on their aircraft. That really is fantastic. I have been a pilot and mechanic for over 35 years now with most of that being on the airline side of things. For the last few years, I have been maintaining GA aircraft (DOM/Accountable Manager for a 145 RS maintaining a fleet of 46 flight school aircraft and doing outside customer work) and it really is a different world (same...but different) than the airlines. An airline mechanic is only concerned with fixing the aircraft and getting it RTS. A GA mechanic is also worried about that but also has to put his small business owner hat on and provide customer service.

Edited May 20, 2021 by JimB

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Tom 4536 said:

Why is it so difficult to get maintenance done? Is the number of repair facilities decreasing at a higher rate than number of GA aircraft? In January I had to give a $1000 deposit to reserve a spot for my April annual. Wilmer can’t seal my fuel tanks until September 2022 and Don Maxwell hasn’t responded to emails or phone calls. This seems to be the norm and makes it difficult to keep the planes flying.

I personally think it has a lot to do with the general attitude of owners toward maintainers regardless of trade.  “If you aren’t smart enough to be a lawyer, account, doctor.......you could always go to trade school”.  My billionaire hangar neighbour still needs a plumber to stick his hand in his toilet.

Often on here I perceive a certain distain for our trade.  “The mechanic did such and such, something broke after I had maintenance done, it must be his fault”  Seldom do I hear “Bob found something on the verge of falling off, he saved my life”

Perhaps we need a poll asking maintainers about their customers, it could be insightful for owners.

Clarence

 

[Ragsf15e]

I have a reasonable relationship with my normal mechanic and trust his engine related judgment.  He’s no Mooney expert though (Cirrus).  He is responsive and does my annuals.  However, last annual he pointed out some work he didn’t really want to do, but thought it needed done (scraping some peeling paint, cleaning surface corrosion, painting).  So in January, I scheduled an appointment with a well known, fairly well regarded shop that said they could do it.  I called twice between January and now to discuss expectations.  I was initially told about 1 week, maybe slightly longer.  I dropped off the airplane at 9:00am on the promised Monday.  By Thursday I got a call that the airplane wasn’t even in the hangar yet and they wouldn’t start until Thursday afternoon at the earliest.  I told them not to touch it.  I’ll come pick it up as is.  5 hours each way in a rental car while it sat outside in the rain instead of in my hangar.

Do I expect too much to get started within a day of promised?

[Betty_the_Mooney]

9 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I have a reasonable relationship with my normal mechanic and trust his engine related judgment.  He’s no Mooney expert though (Cirrus).  He is responsive and does my annuals.  However, last annual he pointed out some work he didn’t really want to do, but thought it needed done (scraping some peeling paint, cleaning surface corrosion, painting).  So in January, I scheduled an appointment with a well known, fairly well regarded shop that said they could do it.  I called twice between January and now to discuss expectations.  I was initially told about 1 week, maybe slightly longer.  I dropped off the airplane at 9:00am on the promised Monday.  By Thursday I got a call that the airplane wasn’t even in the hangar yet and they wouldn’t start until Thursday afternoon at the earliest.  I told them not to touch it.  I’ll come pick it up as is.  5 hours each way in a rental car while it sat outside in the rain instead of in my hangar.

Do I expect too much to get started within a day of promised?

I dropped my plane off for a 10 week job. That was 5.5 months ago. I sympathize!

[carusoam]

5 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I think I can best that.  Mine bought me a nice house, feeds me everyday, buys me all the beer I want, sends me on vacation, bought me a number of really nice airplanes to fly and pays for all of the fuel and maintenance just because he’s a nice guy.  Even lets me sleep with his wife, what a guy!

Clarence

That mechanic is really cool...

Not only does he do all that... he answers questions for me and my friends, every day...

Sees things in our pictures, and let’s us know what needs to be done...

He always shares the procedures, the part numbers, and pics of what a good one should look like...

On top of all that he threw us all a pizza party last time we all got together at KOSH! 

Some people around here have ultra amazing skills...

One of these days... he will be flying a Mooney again...   a Mite.

Go Mechanics of MS!

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

I have a reasonable relationship with my normal mechanic and trust his engine related judgment.  He’s no Mooney expert though (Cirrus).  He is responsive and does my annuals.  However, last annual he pointed out some work he didn’t really want to do, but thought it needed done (scraping some peeling paint, cleaning surface corrosion, painting).  So in January, I scheduled an appointment with a well known, fairly well regarded shop that said they could do it.  I called twice between January and now to discuss expectations.  I was initially told about 1 week, maybe slightly longer.  I dropped off the airplane at 9:00am on the promised Monday.  By Thursday I got a call that the airplane wasn’t even in the hangar yet and they wouldn’t start until Thursday afternoon at the earliest.  I told them not to touch it.  I’ll come pick it up as is.  5 hours each way in a rental car while it sat outside in the rain instead of in my hangar.

Do I expect too much to get started within a day of promised?

Sometimes things go wrong causing delays beyond anyone’s control.  It’s just the way it is.

Clarence

[59Moonster]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Often on here I perceive a certain distain for our trade.  “The mechanic did such and such, something broke after I had maintenance done, it must be his fault”  Seldom do I hear “Bob found something on the verge of falling off, he saved my life”

I think this is the case for all professions this day and age. People on the internet are more prone to complaining about a problem then pointing out where something was done great or was provided above and beyond service. 

[N9405V]

My mechanic and I have a great relationship. We talk on a regular basis and I try to bring food by the hangar on occasion. I try very hard to give good descriptions of what’s going on when the plane gets dropped off and try to stay engaged through the process. Depending on what’s going on, I’ll do the work with his guidance. Again, trust has been built over the years.

I’ll always answer his call or return it as quickly as I can. We’ve also had lots of conversations about what I want from a maintenance stand point and he knows if something needs to be fixed to do it. So far in 7 years I’ve yet to have occasion to question why he fixed something. As far as scheduling goes, the ladies in the office handle that. Donuts and chocolates help create openings in the schedule.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pasturepilot]

I have to look my A&P in the eye each morning as I brush my teeth. He's grumpy and downright mean before the first cup of coffee. He questions my shortcuts and shames me into mostly doing the right thing. 

He's an expensive influence. Sometimes I hate his guts. 

Self-loathing, and all, y'know. 

[thinwing]

On 5/19/2021 at 8:11 AM, JimB said:

I am my A&P/IA/Avionics guy/oil changer/aircraft cleaner/fueler.  So yes...me, myself and I have a pretty amazing relationship. Not sure how good of advice I give myself though. There was this one time back in the 80s when I told myself "That girl is beautiful", you should go buy her a drink! Woke up the next morning and was pretty disappointed with that advice....

how many bags required?

[thinwing]

23 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

I have a reasonable relationship with my normal mechanic and trust his engine related judgment.  He’s no Mooney expert though (Cirrus).  He is responsive and does my annuals.  However, last annual he pointed out some work he didn’t really want to do, but thought it needed done (scraping some peeling paint, cleaning surface corrosion, painting).  So in January, I scheduled an appointment with a well known, fairly well regarded shop that said they could do it.  I called twice between January and now to discuss expectations.  I was initially told about 1 week, maybe slightly longer.  I dropped off the airplane at 9:00am on the promised Monday.  By Thursday I got a call that the airplane wasn’t even in the hangar yet and they wouldn’t start until Thursday afternoon at the earliest.  I told them not to touch it.  I’ll come pick it up as is.  5 hours each way in a rental car while it sat outside in the rain instead of in my hangar.

Do I expect too much to get started within a day of promised?

short answer...yes

[MikeOH]

On 5/20/2021 at 6:51 AM, Oldguy said:

I pay him the instant I receive an invoice and deliver a kilo of Colombian when I come back from my trips down south. 

That's the way I read it the FIRST time

Then I noticed you put "coffee" after Columbian