Looking for advice on potential Mooney Purchase

[mooneydriver1123]

Hello Mooney experts!

I'm hoping to bend your ear and get some advice regarding possibly entering the exclusive club of Mooney owners.

I've come across two listings that are of interest:

• 1968 M20G Statesmen - Nice avionics, gear-up landing
• 1975 M20F Executive 21 - Newer bird, old avionics

These seem like decent options to the uninitiated, Mooney newbie. The engines have low time and I want to say they haven't been hangar queens, but I will have to investigate further. I posted my first thread here about an M20A and everyone was very helpful. For a little more $$$ than my initial listing, I could get the all-metal aircraft. I also want to say that, if I've done my research correctly, these both should have a cabin that's 10" longer than the 1960 M20A I was looking at? The older 1968 M20G even has a nice Aspen and 530W in it.

Looks like the decision here would between the newer model with older avionics, or one that's slightly older with nice avionics and manual gear. I'm almost leaning towards the older aircraft with manual gear. Save myself the cost of expensive avionics upgrades and I'm thinking that the manual gear should be less costly to maintain, no?

Looking forward to your thoughts on these two options and which one you would recommend, if at all.

Thanks in advance for everyone's time and assistance.

[Guest]

Here’s a 1970 C model in southern Ontario.

https://www.apexaircraft.com/inventory/?/listing/for-sale/202747527/1970-mooney-m20c-piston-single-aircraft?dlr=1&accountcrmid=617471&settingscrmid=617471

Clarence

[ryoder]

You really need to see an airplane in person to make a decision. There will be obvious things that make you say no to the airplane when you see it in person.

I like the manual gear a lot but wouldn’t let that be my main decision point. Some airplanes are well cared for and owned by people with the means to invest in their ongoing maintenance and upkeep.  That is probably the most important factor to me. How it was stored and maintained.

[67 m20F chump]

I would go with the F but I’m biased.  Get an annual from a reputable shop if the prepurchase inspection goes well.  Even with that it’s possible to get burned so have some oh shit money left over when you buy.  Enjoy it!

[mooneydriver1123]

41 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Here’s a 1970 C model in southern Ontario.

https://www.apexaircraft.com/inventory/?/listing/for-sale/202747527/1970-mooney-m20c-piston-single-aircraft?dlr=1&accountcrmid=617471&settingscrmid=617471

Clarence

Thanks! I will check it out. It's just down the road from me.

40 minutes ago, ryoder said:

You really need to see an airplane in person to make a decision. There will be obvious things that make you say no to the airplane when you see it in person.

I like the manual gear a lot but wouldn’t let that be my main decision point. Some airplanes are well cared for and owned by people with the means to invest in their ongoing maintenance and upkeep.  That is probably the most important factor to me. How it was stored and maintained.

Absolutely, that makes sense. I suppose I was looking for an overview. Things to watch out for in the preliminary stages.

36 minutes ago, 67 m20F chump said:

I would go with the F but I’m biased.  Get an annual from a reputable shop if the prepurchase inspection goes well.  Even with that it’s possible to get burned so have some oh shit money left over when you buy.  Enjoy it!

I like it, gotta have that extra reserve. Take the budget and double it sort of thing.

[gsxrpilot]

The G and the F are very different airplanes. Send me a PM if you'd like to talk about it. I can walk you through the differences, pro's, con's of each, etc. But I'd much rather talk it through on the phone than try to write it all out here.

[mooneydriver1123]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

The G and the F are very different airplanes. Send me a PM if you'd like to talk about it. I can walk you through the differences, pro's, con's of each, etc. But I'd much rather talk it through on the phone than try to write it all out here.

PM sent. Thanks!

[Chocks]

One big comparison that I always kept in my mind is, that the F is a 200hp and the G is a 180hp on the same frame. 

@gsxrpilotwill be able to give you some great info though. 

[KLRDMD]

4 hours ago, ryoder said:

You really need to see an airplane in person to make a decision. There will be obvious things that make you say no to the airplane when you see it in person.

I guess I've been doing it wrong all these years. I'm working on buying my 18th airplane now, only six of which I saw in person before buying.

[mooneydriver1123]

14 minutes ago, "Chocks" said:

One big comparison that I always kept in my mind is, that the F is a 200hp and the G is a 180hp on the same frame. 

@gsxrpilotwill be able to give you some great info though. 

That's very good to know, thanks!

11 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

I guess I've been doing it wrong all these years. I'm working on buying my 18th airplane now, only six of which I saw in person before buying.

Wow. Now that's 18x more experience than I have. Right on.

[carusoam]

I love to load up the work for a newbie looking to buy a Mooney...

With other brands... there are certain models or production years to be avoided... this cuts down the work a ton! 

 

The Good news...

All Mooney models are good...  

Depending on who you are... one model will be better than all the others for you...

I started with the obvious things first...

1) What engine do you want to fly...

2) How big are your back seaters going to grow during your ownership period...

3) Are you going to fly in IMC...

4) If you look to the west... do you see any large bodies of water...

5) More about engines...

• carb vs. fuel injection?
• Normally aspirated vs. TC’d or TN’d?
• Cylinders, four, six, and to include my friend in the North.... eight.
• If you plan to graduate out of the Mooney world... there are twins and turbines... select your Mooney to narrow the gap...

6) When it comes to engines... there are preferred ones and less preferred ones... based on their designs... or the devices that are bolted to the engine...

7) Budget... start planning this as well... don’t spend it all... the first year of ownership can be easy... or it can be tough...

8) Match your PPI to your skills of buying old machinery, and the amount of dough you are using...

Start making lists...  when you talk to Paul... have your note taking skills ready... 

PP thoughts only, not a pro airplane buyer...

Best regards,

-a-

[Rusty Pilot]

The 1975 F has electric gear while the 1968 G has the johnson bar.  Both work well, but higher maintenance costs with electric gear and likely an AD.  I would lean towards the F with fuel injection and 200hp.  A nice forever plane.

[Marauder]

I’m a 30 year owner of a 75 F model. The late model Fs are pretty refined and were used as the airframe for the first J models.

There are few ADs with the late F models. If the F you are looking at has a solid airframe and you intended to keep the plane for a while, it would be a good platform to add upgrades as you need them.

Let me know if need any advice on the F you are looking at. I’ve pretty much seen it all.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Utah20Gflyer]

I just purchased a 1968 M20G,  I consider it to be the most utilitarian plane that Mooney every built.  Roomy cabin with the lowest cost systems to maintain that Mooney built.   I am liking it so far.  I’ve actually never flown in an F so can’t give you a comparison of the 2 models.   Many say the g is the slow Mooney but mine seems to average 140 to 145 knots with quite a few speed mods, climb has been more than adequate.  I think the biggest downside to the g is the lower useful load generally.  The gross weight is actually lower than a C with the extra weight of the mid body.  My useful is 850 - someThing I may try to work on in the future.  

[Ragsf15e]

4 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

I just purchased a 1968 M20G,  I consider it to be the most utilitarian plane that Mooney every built.  Roomy cabin with the lowest cost systems to maintain that Mooney built.   I am liking it so far.  I’ve actually never flown in an F so can’t give you a comparison of the 2 models.   Many say the g is the slow Mooney but mine seems to average 140 to 145 knots with quite a few speed mods, climb has been more than adequate.  I think the biggest downside to the g is the lower useful load generally.  The gross weight is actually lower than a C with the extra weight of the mid body.  My useful is 850 - someThing I may try to work on in the future.  

Yes, tge UL is the thing I was going to caution him on.  If you’re looking for a longer two person airplane, nothing wrong with a G.  I certainly wouldn’t worry about the few knots.  The manual gear is fine.  My electric gear is good too, but there has been some extra expense for sure.  I use all the 1035 UL of my F because I put the family of 4 in it and fly 500nm to grandmas house.  That just wouldn’t work in a G, but if that’s not your mission, a G is fine.

~5 hours fuel (4 flying, 1 reserve), about 55 gallons, 330lbs.  Just over 500nm.

~520 lbs of people, luggage, flight gear, survival equipment.  2 adults.  Maybe 2 adults with 1 child?

Does that fit your mission?

[mooneydriver1123]

On 4/20/2021 at 11:18 PM, carusoam said:

I love to load up the work for a newbie looking to buy a Mooney...

With other brands... there are certain models or production years to be avoided... this cuts down the work a ton! 

 

The Good news...

All Mooney models are good...  

Depending on who you are... one model will be better than all the others for you...

I started with the obvious things first...

1) What engine do you want to fly...

2) How big are your back seaters going to grow during your ownership period...

3) Are you going to fly in IMC...

4) If you look to the west... do you see any large bodies of water...

5) More about engines...

• carb vs. fuel injection?
• Normally aspirated vs. TC’d or TN’d?
• Cylinders, four, six, and to include my friend in the North.... eight.
• If you plan to graduate out of the Mooney world... there are twins and turbines... select your Mooney to narrow the gap...

6) When it comes to engines... there are preferred ones and less preferred ones... based on their designs... or the devices that are bolted to the engine...

7) Budget... start planning this as well... don’t spend it all... the first year of ownership can be easy... or it can be tough...

8) Match your PPI to your skills of buying old machinery, and the amount of dough you are using...

Start making lists...  when you talk to Paul... have your note taking skills ready... 

PP thoughts only, not a pro airplane buyer...

Best regards,

-a-

1) Preferably fuel injected, so the IO360 would be ideal
2) The backseaters would be family/friends, so already full-grown. Leaning towards going with a mid-body.
3) Yes
4) Not the Pacific, just the Great Lakes around my area 
5) - Fuel injection, to avoid any potential issues with carb ice and have the additional 20HP of the IO360 vs O360
- As much as I would like the idea of a TC or TN, I like the simplicity of a normally aspirated engine will suffice and really help to save on maintenance costs.
- 4 cylinders should give me plenty of power and useful load for my purposes
- Likely not, at least not for a long time. I'm hoping to get something that would be my airplane for a long time.
6) What is the consensus on the IO360-A1A? It powers the F model, if I'm not mistaken?
7) Absolutely. This is the most daunting aspect of the entire idea. I'm trying to be very conservative in my estimations, so as to keep reserves readily available for if, or more likely when, things show up
8) Could you expand on this a bit for more please? You're saying to make sure you spend the extra dough on a more thorough PPI if I'm not familiar with buying old machinery? I would definitely be spending the dough on a thorough PPI. First airplane and not used to buying older machinery.

Thank-you for your insights and things to keep in mind! I had a great chat with Paul and had my note taking skills at the ready. Paul was incredibly helpful!

On 4/21/2021 at 6:46 AM, Rusty Pilot said:

The 1975 F has electric gear while the 1968 G has the johnson bar.  Both work well, but higher maintenance costs with electric gear and likely an AD.  I would lean towards the F with fuel injection and 200hp.  A nice forever plane.

I was under the impression that some F models came with the johnson bar as well? I could be wrong. I'm leaning towards the F model as well for the reasons you mentioned; fuel injection, 200HP, and if I can find one with manual gear, all the better. Less things to go wrong and less maintenance expense.

On 4/21/2021 at 10:16 AM, Marauder said:

I’m a 30 year owner of a 75 F model. The late model Fs are pretty refined and were used as the airframe for the first J models.

There are few ADs with the late F models. If the F you are looking at has a solid airframe and you intended to keep the plane for a while, it would be a good platform to add upgrades as you need them.

Let me know if need any advice on the F you are looking at. I’ve pretty much seen it all.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Great to hear you've owned your F for 30 years. I'm thinking the F model will be the way to go. I appreciate your offer to help out, very kind! I'm sure I will take you up on your offer and send you a PM or two along the way.

16 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

I just purchased a 1968 M20G,  I consider it to be the most utilitarian plane that Mooney every built.  Roomy cabin with the lowest cost systems to maintain that Mooney built.   I am liking it so far.  I’ve actually never flown in an F so can’t give you a comparison of the 2 models.   Many say the g is the slow Mooney but mine seems to average 140 to 145 knots with quite a few speed mods, climb has been more than adequate.  I think the biggest downside to the g is the lower useful load generally.  The gross weight is actually lower than a C with the extra weight of the mid body.  My useful is 850 - someThing I may try to work on in the future.  

That kind of speed is certainly very respectable. I would be happy with those numbers, no doubt. For the most part, it would likely be just myself and a +1, but every now and again I would have 2 or even 3 pax that I will want to take. So the UL does come into question for me. Another thing that was brought to my attention was the fact that it's very difficult to run LOP reliably on a carbureted engine. It sounds like there's some savings to be had, especially over the long run, to being able to run LOP. In any case, I wouldn't want to start a ROP vs. LOP debate here, just something I'm keeping in mind. But yeah, no doubt the G model would be more than sufficient for the majority of my flights.

12 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Yes, tge UL is the thing I was going to caution him on.  If you’re looking for a longer two person airplane, nothing wrong with a G.  I certainly wouldn’t worry about the few knots.  The manual gear is fine.  My electric gear is good too, but there has been some extra expense for sure.  I use all the 1035 UL of my F because I put the family of 4 in it and fly 500nm to grandmas house.  That just wouldn’t work in a G, but if that’s not your mission, a G is fine.

~5 hours fuel (4 flying, 1 reserve), about 55 gallons, 330lbs.  Just over 500nm.

~520 lbs of people, luggage, flight gear, survival equipment.  2 adults.  Maybe 2 adults with 1 child?

Does that fit your mission?

For the most part, yes it fits my mission. I don't anticipate having to carry 3-4 people total on a regular basis, but I think, at this point, since I'm considering this to be my "forever" airplane, I do want that ability going forward. I may be narrowing this down to wanting the F model.

 

Thank-you for everyone's time and input. You're all proving to be a very valuable resource in helping this Mooney newbie get up to speed quickly on what he needs to know.

[Hank]

In my C [same engine as a G, but with the short body], I fly ROP and at 8500 msl and up, fuel burn is less than 9 gph--I've had block fuel burn [engine on until engine off] as low as 8.6 gal/hour [fuel measured at the fuel pump, time measured by the yoke clock, set on start up].

About landing gear:  electric gear was an option starting some time around '64 or '65; some were retrofitted after purchase. Beginning in 1969, electric gear was standard and the J-bar went away [they sold very few, if any, 1968 planes with manual gear]. I've had almost zero maintenance expense due to having electric gear vs. manual in the dozen annuals I've been through. Both need to be greased and swung; manual gear has additional bungee tension tests at annual [I think, no experience]. Some planes have Dukes motors on the gear, they have issues, but I doubt there are any Fs made that way unless the motor has been replaced--my C has an ITT gear motor.

Good luck and happy shopping! We love, love, love our Mooney!

[Utah20Gflyer]

If money is not a concern I think the F is definitely a more versatile plane but also keep in mind the IO 360 is more money to overhaul/maintain than a O 360.  Ultimately whichever plane has been maintained better will be the more affordable aircraft to own but all things being equal the O360 with the manual systems is dirt simple with the absolute lowest costs for a complex airplane.   As you move from the earlier  C/G models towards the late model long bodies the costs incrementally increase.  Where you end up on that scale just depends on what mission you want to accomplish and how much money you want to spend accomplishing it.   

[carusoam]

Find @NJMac....  his M20E is getting pushed out of the nest...

Something about being fruitful, and his foot no longer fits the shoe...  

It will make a great plane to discuss...

 

As far as Pre-Purchase Inspections go...

If you have the skill, know the owner, and the Plane is well kept and maintained... the PPI can be very simple... Ken mentioned his approach above... (He is a skilled purchaser of old machines)

When spending as much as a new car on your plane... the PPI is not very elaborate...

When spending as much as a house on your plane... the PPI has to be protective in scale...

A very expensive PPI is similar in scale to an annual inspection...they are different, with different limitations... for a few bucks more, you can get both... 

Best regards,

-a-

NJM’s plane mentioned above can be found here...

 

[MBDiagMan]

Choosing among different models to have the desired features is fine, but no matter what, don’t lose sight of the top three criteria when evaluating ANY used vehicle whether it has wings or not.  These top three criteria are:

1.  condition

2. Condition

3. CONDITION

[mooneydriver1123]

On 4/22/2021 at 2:03 PM, Hank said:

In my C [same engine as a G, but with the short body], I fly ROP and at 8500 msl and up, fuel burn is less than 9 gph--I've had block fuel burn [engine on until engine off] as low as 8.6 gal/hour [fuel measured at the fuel pump, time measured by the yoke clock, set on start up].

About landing gear:  electric gear was an option starting some time around '64 or '65; some were retrofitted after purchase. Beginning in 1969, electric gear was standard and the J-bar went away [they sold very few, if any, 1968 planes with manual gear]. I've had almost zero maintenance expense due to having electric gear vs. manual in the dozen annuals I've been through. Both need to be greased and swung; manual gear has additional bungee tension tests at annual [I think, no experience]. Some planes have Dukes motors on the gear, they have issues, but I doubt there are any Fs made that way unless the motor has been replaced--my C has an ITT gear motor.

Good luck and happy shopping! We love, love, love our Mooney!

I didn't know fuel burn could be that economical on the C model with the carb O360. Good to know!

Thanks for clarifying regarding the manual vs electric gear. This simplifies things as I continue my reserarch. What is ITT that you referred to? I'm assuming Dukes/ITT are a make of electric gear motors?

On 4/22/2021 at 2:11 PM, Utah20Gflyer said:

If money is not a concern I think the F is definitely a more versatile plane but also keep in mind the IO 360 is more money to overhaul/maintain than a O 360.  Ultimately whichever plane has been maintained better will be the more affordable aircraft to own but all things being equal the O360 with the manual systems is dirt simple with the absolute lowest costs for a complex airplane.   As you move from the earlier  C/G models towards the late model long bodies the costs incrementally increase.  Where you end up on that scale just depends on what mission you want to accomplish and how much money you want to spend accomplishing it.   

I wouldn't go so far as to say that money is not a concern. It's a concern, always lol. I suppose I'm just weighing the differences/benefits vs. the cost differences. I appreciate your input!

On 4/22/2021 at 11:33 PM, carusoam said:

Find @NJMac....  his M20E is getting pushed out of the nest...

Something about being fruitful, and his foot no longer fits the shoe...  

It will make a great plane to discuss...

 

As far as Pre-Purchase Inspections go...

If you have the skill, know the owner, and the Plane is well kept and maintained... the PPI can be very simple... Ken mentioned his approach above... (He is a skilled purchaser of old machines)

When spending as much as a new car on your plane... the PPI is not very elaborate...

When spending as much as a house on your plane... the PPI has to be protective in scale...

A very expensive PPI is similar in scale to an annual inspection...they are different, with different limitations... for a few bucks more, you can get both... 

Best regards,

-a-

NJM’s plane mentioned above can be found here...

 

Understood. Also thanks for the link to the M20E for sale. I'm still getting up to speed when it comes to aircraft ownership, and being up in Canada, adding the complexities of importing are a consideration. I hear it could be a simple thing that take less than month, to something that can quickly become a headache if there have been modifications that aren't approved by Transport Canada. Not to mention the tax and possible luxury tax that could be tacked on as well, depending on purchase price. So I'm inclined to stay on this side of border if at all possible. That really limits my options unfortunately. So I'm still keeping an eye out in case something comes along. There is so much more inventory and options available south of the border.

On 4/23/2021 at 9:41 AM, MBDiagMan said:

Choosing among different models to have the desired features is fine, but no matter what, don’t lose sight of the top three criteria when evaluating ANY used vehicle whether it has wings or not.  These top three criteria are:

1.  condition

2. Condition

3. CONDITION

Absolutely! Agreed.