Mooney down with engine trouble in Banning Airport, California Need mechanic

[lvpazik]

#1 cylinder reached excessive heat yesterday during flight from Vegas to Ramona. Put her down in Banning airport Banning CA.  Oil temp and pressure and other cynlinders normal. Not sure if lost just a cylinder or worse. No mechanic on field. Looking for qualified mechanic that can look engine over on field, checking compressions, doing boroscope and overall "look see". Trying to diagnose issue to see how bad it is or isn't. Brand new paint job less than 9 months old hence trying to prevent any lower cowling damage and don't believe one person can remove and replace lower cowling without it hitting pavement etc.

 

Randy Pazik

702-204-7891

N922PT

Continental TSIO-360-GB engine with only 400 hours on it since last rebuild.

[carusoam]

lvp,

Consider editing your title...

Mooney Down... means something different than being stuck on the ground... 

Use the word AOG in the title...

Got a JPI in the panel?  And a way to get the data off of it?

Did you have a high EGT to go with that?

was the high CHT below redline value for the CHT gauge?
 

https://www.airnav.com/airport/KBNG
 

See if this helps any...

 

-a-

[lvpazik]

CHT did redline which caused pilot to quickly land, but it did happen. He said EGT hit 1350 once but then "flickered" between 300-550 afterwards.  There is a full engine analyzer in airplane however I live 3.5 hours away so not practical for me to travel just to access it. 

 

[A64Pilot]

Are we talking EGT or cyl head temp or likely both?

I’d do a leak down test, if it passes that then it’s most likely good. I would suspect first injector then start looking for manifold leaks. Don’t be afraid to swap injectors to help trouble shoot,you can always put them back.

Percent power when it acted up? And were you LOP? How long before you reduced power and did the power reduction cool it off?

[Yetti]

Does it heat up at reduced power?

[A64Pilot]

The cyl head temp was changing between 300 and 550?

Ifit was changing rapidly,I’d suspect a sensor error

Edited April 10, 2021 by A64Pilot

[carusoam]

A typical reason for a single cylinder to go hot... is a runaway EGT...

An unusually high EGT is often a fuel injector blockage... (one that is different than the rest)

If you know you have a blocked FI, the trouble shooting gets much easier...

 

Consider editing the thread title to reflect AOG in place of Mooney Down...  there has been no crash or off airport landing...

Best regards,

-a-

[A64Pilot]

Detonation will also make cyl head and egt go nuts

On edit if it’s a clogged injector then that one cylinder will display abnormalities during run up now.

Nedd to know what was flickering between 300 and 500 though

Edited April 10, 2021 by A64Pilot

[StevenL757]

1 hour ago, lvpazik said:

#1 cylinder reached excessive heat yesterday during flight from Vegas to Ramona. Put her down in Banning airport Banning CA.  Oil temp and pressure and other cynlinders normal. Not sure if lost just a cylinder or worse. No mechanic on field. Looking for qualified mechanic that can look engine over on field, checking compressions, doing boroscope and overall "look see". Trying to diagnose issue to see how bad it is or isn't. Brand new paint job less than 9 months old hence trying to prevent any lower cowling damage and don't believe one person can remove and replace lower cowling without it hitting pavement etc.

 

Randy Pazik

702-204-7891

N922PT

Continental TSIO-360-GB engine with only 400 hours on it since last rebuild.

Randy,

I respectfully suggest you change your title as @carusoam indicated.  Try something like “Mooney AOG with engine trouble....”, else, this could wind up in the Accident/Incident thread and be misconstrued.

Thanks in advance.

Steve

[mike_elliott]

if wanting to know what is going on, consider making the 3.5 hr drive to get the engine data. Everything else is a guess at anecdotal data. Once you have what really went on in the engine secured, reach out to @kortopates and see if he can work his analytical magic. 

Glad your lower cowl is ok, along with all the occupants.

[RobertGary1]

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

A typical reason for a single cylinder to go hot... is a runaway EGT...

A Runaway EGT is often a fuel injector blockage...

If you know you have a blocked FI, the trouble shooting gets much easier...

 

Consider editing the thread title to reflect AOG in place of Mooney Down...  there has been no crash or off airport landing...

Best regards,

-a-

Yea my first action would be to pull the injector insert but I’m the guy who grabs for tools the moment something isn’t right. Work out the paperwork later with an a&p to return to service. 

[carusoam]

38 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Yea my first action would be to pull the injector insert but I’m the guy who grabs for tools the moment something isn’t right. Work out the paperwork later with an a&p to return to service. 

in this case...

Fishing for a mechanic to come from a distance...On a weekend...

Somebody may be more motivated to help... with more information to go on... compared to less...

 

More of a challenge of working with people... than with machines...   

How long does it take to pull an injector insert?  A couple of hours from start to flying again?

PP thoughts only, not a people person...

Best regards,

-a-

[exM20K]

@carusoamnot sure what runaway EGT is.  They will go to peak and nothing more.  Runaway CHT is an indication of detonation.

The OP's description of fluctuating EGT

3 hours ago, lvpazik said:

1350 once but then "flickered" between 300-550 afterwards.

sounds like a bad probe.  My TSIO 550 eats them like they're free, which of course, they're not. This is the failure mode i've seen: very high, then bouncing all over, then the red "X."

Were I stuck like this, I'd try to switch CHT leads or probes to see if it is the probe, do a good LOP run-up, and if all normal, go around the pattern at altitude a couple times. 

-dan

[carusoam]

Thanks Dan...

I reworded that a bit better...

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

19 minutes ago, exM20K said:

@carusoamnot sure what runaway EGT is.  They will go to peak and nothing more.  Runaway CHT is an indication of detonation.

I had runaway EGT when my right magneto died at 9500 msl. I'd leaned it as always (peak around 1500-1525), later it was higher than this so I leaned again. Not long later it was at 1650-1675 (redline is 1600). When I clicked the ignition to Right, it got really quiet and the nose pitched down to maintain the trimmed airspeed. Fired back up on Left, and I releaned it.

The high EGT was caused by incomplete combustion with only one plug firing, fuel was still burning when the exhaust valve opened.

[exM20K]

Just now, Hank said:

I had runaway EGT when my right magneto died at 9500 msl. I'd leaned it as always (peak around 1500-1525), later it was higher than this so I leaned again. Not long later it was at 1650-1675 (redline is 1600). When I clicked the ignition to Right, it got really quiet and the nose pitched down to maintain the trimmed airspeed. Fired back up on Left, and I releaned it.

Yah, BTDT, too.  But the mag failure is not limited to a single cylinder.  Here are the traces. It was not a complete failure but the mag had fubar'd itself enough to not run the engine.  obviously I knew something was up as you can see from the mag checks in - flight. Interesting post-mag shutoff to see how 1,3, and 5 CHT's really dropped off.  Top plug vs bottom.

  really important to select ICO on the mixture before going back to "both," lest you scare your pax and maybe earn some new exhaust components with a big boom.

[A64Pilot]

9 hours ago, exM20K said:

@carusoamnot sure what runaway EGT is.  They will go to peak and nothing more.  Runaway CHT is an indication of detonation.

The OP's description of fluctuating EGT

sounds like a bad probe.  My TSIO 550 eats them like they're free, which of course, they're not. This is the failure mode i've seen: very high, then bouncing all over, then the red "X."

Were I stuck like this, I'd try to switch CHT leads or probes to see if it is the probe, do a good LOP run-up, and if all normal, go around the pattern at altitude a couple times. 

-dan

it tough to figure out what’s he really saying, For instance was it just EGT? 1350 isn’t really that high?

Or did he have high cyl head temps also?

But “flickering” is not a word normally used for properly functioning sensors. 

‘really hinges on whether or not there were high cyl head temps to go along with abnormal EGT

[A64Pilot]

10 hours ago, carusoam said:

 

How long does it take to pull an injector insert?  A couple of hours from start to flying again?

 

On my 550 and I’d assume here also, two minutes. 3/8’ wrench if memory serves to disconnect the line and a 7/16” deep well socket to pull the injector.

‘Mine I don’t believe came apart, I never tried but I think they were one piece, remove the injector and using the straw on a can of carb cleaner blow though it backwards to clean it out.

‘But be very careful, have a rag around it so no cleaner sprays into your eyes, because that stuff burns like fire if it does.

‘Pulling an injector is pretty much identical to pulling a plug, just a much smaller thing

[Jeph357]

[Seth]

I had two cylinder heads crack on my in 2012 about 100 hours into the overhauled engine run. That caused immense overheating of the CHT. 

Do figure out what's wrong. The engine monitor data is crucial here.

PIlot did a smart job in making a precautionary landing. Should be commended for that.

 

-Seth

Edited April 11, 2021 by Seth

[bradp]

Also it ain’t difficult to remove a Mooney cowling  one person.  A bit more difficult with a three blade. But this is a baby bath water issue.  The plane needs to be decowled either way. 
 

This appears to be @Frank Mooneys plane with the cool panel.  Maybe he can provide some insight.  

[kmyfm20s]

There is a mechanic at Redlands airport. I can remember his name but I would give him a call. He’s the closest to Banning.

[exM20K]

Team player that I am, I decided to fail an EGT probe during one of my flights yesterday:

https://apps.savvyaviation.com/flights/4841967/edccd3c3-efd6-493d-b3c9-7db9147cda9a

Failure starts at 1:38. Engine was smooth with steady temps otherwise for the duration of the flight.

Note how sensitive #3 EGT is to tiny changes in mixture during the descent.  That's un-possible to do in an engine.

 

If the @lvpazik's data look like this, I'd replace the probe, fly it, and call it good.

-dan

[carusoam]

+1 for demonstrating the EGT sensor failure skill... those Acclaims are awesome... 

+1 for sharing the data.

If sensor replacement is unable... swapping the sensor with a neighbor... can prove the sensor problem moves with the sensor...

Nice work Dan!

Best regards,

-a-

[201Steve]

This is one of those stories that makes me wonder how some people survive (not necessarily in a literal sense) aircraft ownership or GA in general.  Saw some numbers, didn’t do any diagnosis, left it in a rural town, doesn’t want to go check it out later. That confuses me.