Go Around in a J Model

[A64Pilot]

I was reading in the thread about why no touch and goes that there seemed to be an opinion that a J Model and I guess by extension that a Mooney with gear down and full flap won’t climb, that you  need to reconfigure the aircraft at least to approach flaps to take off.

‘Well today I went to get a little instrument practice in, I’m very close to sea level so call it sea level and temps of 80F. On departure I climbed gear up, cowl flaps open at full throttle full rich and full prop at I guess about 110 knots and 1000 FPM, full fuel and just me.

So I shot the ILS at Ocala and on go around left the gear down, full flaps, full rich, full power, full RPM and climbed at 85 to 90 kts at 1000 FPM, or a steeper climb than I did no flaps and gear up, but the same rate.

‘I think maybe some may be trying to climb at the same speed they do gear and flaps up, and of course the increased drag of the flaps and gear really kills the climb rate?

Because honestly my J model went around just as well as any other aircraft I’ve flown, and didn’t have excess pitch forces at all, much less than most it seemed.

‘I was trimmed for power off, gear down, flaps down 80 kt approach speed, and on go around all I did was open the throttle and cowl flaps. 

 

[Hank]

Not climbing isn't the issue, but the (unexpected) yoke force to stay comfortably above stall is what seems to bother folks the most. 

Plus, nosing down to keep up speed results in an odd, flat attitude, which is disconcerting.

But I rarely land my C with full flaps, so it's much less of an issue for me . . . .

[N201MKTurbo]

I never had any problems flying my J in any configuration. You just have to know if you are set up for landing and give it full power to will pitch up quite a bit. I usually go half power, which will arrest the descent. Put the gear and flaps up, trim and then go to full power. This all takes about 5 seconds.

If doing a T&G I will roll the trim to the takeoff position before adding takeoff power. I start rolling the trim as soon as the wheels touch. 

[jaylw314]

I've inadvertently taken off with full nose up trim (don't ask).  When the nose pitched up early, I ended up holding the nose forward to gain speed in ground effect and then letting up once I gained enough speed before messing around with the trim.  Even between Vx and Vy, the yoke forces were firm, but not uncontrollable, but I could see the surprise factor being the issue.

When I do T&G's or go-arounds, I do them with full flaps and landing trim, since that's how I usually land, and I keep those usually to at least 100' AGL or more.  It keeps me familiar and comfortable with the control forces needed at those settings to gain speed and start climbing.

 

[A64Pilot]

Compared to a Maule and a C-210, the pitch up was quite mild, of course it climbs flat, anything I’ve ever flown anyway will with full flap as flaps impart a nose down attitude.

All I did was add full power pretty quickly, I don’t slam the throttle, I’ve got way more turbine time than piston and you just don’t slam a turbine. I’d guess about 2 sec from idle to full throttle. I didn’t re-trim just to see what kind of pitch up force I got, and it was quite mild.

In short, in my opinion my Mooney will perform a go around with less than average drama of anything I’ve flown from a C-140 thru most Pipers and Cessna singles.

‘But don’t believe me, go out and try it for yourself, of course if you haven’t before, ease into it, don’t slam the throttle as yours may react differently.

I know some get spoiled by the electric trim and will trim all the way into the flare, I don’t, I pull on the yoke. If you trimmed into the flare as opposing to pulling on the yoke, then yes you may have more pitch forces as your trimmed to flare, not fly, so your trimmed to stall, so add a bunch of power and it’s going to stall if you let it.

But that’s not a Mooney fault, any aircraft will do that.

[Mooney in Oz]

54 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You just have to know if you are set up for landing and give it full power to will pitch up quite a bit.

Agree and the surprise factor can make it disconcerting.

I expect the possibility of a go-around with every landing, so there is no surprise factor to deal with. Don't rush the go-around. Smoothly apply throttle, adjust trim, fly level for a few seconds to build speed, gear up, flap up then off you go.

A go-around in a J is a cream puff compared to a go-around in a C210 with full flaps selected.

[carusoam]

A64,

See if you can link that thread here...

1) a 180hp M20C has plenty of power to go around with full flaps...

2) The PIC has to be aware of DA, and gross weight...

3) It is important to have flap retract speed worked out properly...  it’s possible to have the flaps come up faster than desired...

4) The most common surprise to a new owner is the same for all models... trim, flaps, and landing power settings become unbalanced as power gets added...

5) too much trim up during T/O is an easy way to get in a stall situation... no matter what flap settings are used...

Also find the link to somebody flying with the trim switch...  it’s such a bad idea... you won’t find them admitting to it a second time...  it is often mixed in with other misconceptions of power, speed and attitude...

There used to be a statement used early on... that Mooneys can’t get enough up trim for landing... which can cause a challenge when the WnB changes...

Try not to bash the people bringing forth pretty crummy ideas...  everyone comes to MS to learn a few things about their ship...

In the end... they are PIC of their ship...   try and convince them there is a better way... 

Remember... Transition Training is highly recommended... but not required.   ...and can be hard to afford right when they need it most...

Full flaps and full power has ended a few flights.... probably the first accident review for Mooneys I read about prior to Y2K...   It involved a CFI...

I was on the fence about buying a Mooney that could kill a CFI...

As far as electric trim goes... it is soooo slow to react 

The least powerful Mooney has awesome power...  Having 350hp must be more awesomer... 

What makes MS an interesting place... it is full up with all types of people with varying backgrounds in and out of flying...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Go ahead and connect the link...  we might learn from what I was thinking back then.... 

Best regards,

-a-

[N201MKTurbo]

3 hours ago, Mooney in Oz said:

Agree and the surprise factor can make it disconcerting.

It is only a surprise the first time. And that should be in your check out ride.

[PT20J]

Mooneys up through the M20J have trim assist bungees which act as centering springs in the elevator system. Set takeoff trim and sit in the cockpit on the ground and notice how much force it takes to deflect the elevators up and down. This spring force is in addition to any aerodynamic forces generated by an out of trim condition. The springs improve airspeed stability - the tendency to return to trimmed airspeed when disturbed. A measure of airspeed stability is the stick force required to hold a constant airspeed that differs from the trim airspeed. Airplanes with a lot of airspeed stability have high stick forces when out of trim and the force increases the farther you get from trim airspeed. 

@blueontopmay be along shortly explain certification requirements, but I believe that any Mooney should be controllable over the full trim range. The stick forces are just higher than the Cessna or Piper single we may have learned in. It’s a good exercise to climb to a safe altitude, slow to climb speed, set climb power and roll the trim full up while holding airspeed constant with the yoke.

Skip

[carusoam]

In the event you have to fly with a stuck trim...

It can be really helpful to know which way the the center of lift moves when going from no flaps to full flaps....

Flaps can be a friend or a foe depending on which way the trim was last headed...

Many MSers may run out of arm strength if they have to fight the trim for a long period of time...

PP thoughts only, not a gym rat...
 

Best regards,

-a-

[Ibra]

I put a bit of power while gently resisting nose up, clean aircraft and accelerate near 70kts, then yoke/trim forces are realistic to climb on full power

I have done two takeoffs with full flaps in M20J just to know my aircraft, I am dead sure going around from any state is doable just question of clean it & accelerate, also, I am not a "rush it guy", I take lot of pleasure to fly it near ground on half power and M20J just likes it ! 

Less hectic than GoAround in C172N with 40deg flaps, 40kts IAS and +10deg pitch 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Ibra

[cwaters]

On 4/6/2021 at 11:33 PM, carusoam said:

In the event you have to fly with a stuck trim...

It can be really helpful to know which way the the center of lift moves when going from no flaps to full flaps....

Flaps can be a friend or a foe depending on which way the trim was last headed...

Many MSers may run out of arm strength if they have to fight the trim for a long period of time...

PP thoughts only, not a gym rat...
 

Best regards,

-a-

This is why my transition training included flying with simulated "stuck trim" for a few minutes to recognize what to do. 

full nose up trim being stuck is a big problem at high speed - Stall, Full nose down trim can be a different story. but in either case speed exacerbates the problem. 

 

- still new and learning 

[Rmag]

On 4/6/2021 at 5:22 PM, A64Pilot said:

I know some get spoiled by the electric trim and will trim all the way into the flare, I don’t, I pull on the yoke. If you trimmed into the flare as opposing to pulling on the yoke, then yes you may have more pitch forces as your trimmed to flare, not fly, so your trimmed to stall, so add a bunch of power and it’s going to stall if you let it.

Some people flare a plane for landing with trim???   Ugh.  

I’m a proponent of always keeping the plane in trim, but you never “fly” with trim.  Fly with the yoke and then trim off the pressure.  I do trim for approach but once set if there was ever a time to “just fly the plane” it’s wizzing past the ground trying to squeak the wheels onto concrete especially with variable wind/gusts.

[A64Pilot]

I’ve never flown a Cirrus, but it’s my understanding that they are flown with trim, with the side stick, I would expect that.

‘I have flown a Lot of C-210 time, and the controls are so heavy many if not most are running the trim up on final.

‘Finally Ray Maule gave me my check out and however many hours dual insurence required, he taught on final, run the trim full up, that gives you neutral stick force in a slow approach. Landing slow in a three point attitude is the best way for a novice pilot to handle a Maule

It was the Maule that taught me to not do that, on go-around when you slammed that IO-540 to full throttle. it literally took both hands pushing hard to keep the airplane from a zoom climb, and then of course a stall, and with full throttle probably a half turn spin before you impacted, I’m not sure a lightly built pilot could have held the nose down it was so bad, really a bad thing to teach in my opinion, Maule stick forces are nothing compared to the 210 so it was unnecessary

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I’ve never flown a Cirrus, but it’s my understanding that they are flown with trim, with the side stick, I would expect that

 Not really. Cirrus trim is funky. It's not as easy to adjust it in tiny increments as the electric trim in other aircraft. It tends to overtrim, overshoot what you want. So perhaps even more than other aircraft, its hand on stick and trim to remove pressure, and you may still need to make manual adjustments. Never a good idea but IMO a Mooney with electric trim would be easier to trim fly than a Cirrus. OTOH, if it has  a TOGA (take off and go around) button (I don't recall if the earlier models had that) it commands a 7 degree nose up pitch in the flight director. Engage the autopilot in TO mode and it trims itself for the climb.

(I just did a Cirrus refresher flight)

Edited April 14, 2021 by midlifeflyer

[PT20J]

49 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

 Not really. Cirrus trim is funky. It's not as easy to adjust it in tiny increments as the electric trim in other aircraft. It tends to overtrim, overshoot what you want. So perhaps even more than other aircraft, its hand on stick and trim to remove pressure, and you may still need to make manual adjustments. Never a good idea but IMO a Mooney with electric trim would be easier to trim fly than a Cirrus. OTOH, if it has  a TOGA (take off and go around) button (I don't recall if the earlier models had that) it commands a 7 degree nose up pitch in the flight director. Engage the autopilot in TO mode and it trims itself for the climb.

(I just did a Cirrus refresher flight)

I believe Cirrus (at least the one’s I flew) used the autopilot roll servo for aileron trim and it was too aggressive and easy to overshoot. I’m not sure if they did the same thing in pitch. I never had much trouble trimming in pitch, but roll was frustrating. 

Skip

[Bob - S50]

2 hours ago, PT20J said:

I believe Cirrus (at least the one’s I flew) used the autopilot roll servo for aileron trim and it was too aggressive and easy to overshoot. I’m not sure if they did the same thing in pitch. I never had much trouble trimming in pitch, but roll was frustrating. 

Skip

Or the other way around.  The aileron trim servo is used by the autopilot for roll control.

Depending on the specific (older) aircraft some have one pitch servo and some have two.  If you have one, it's the pitch trim servo and the autopilot uses it for pitch control.  If you have two then the AP uses the pitch servo for pitch control and the trim servo for autotrim.

You can tell which you have by running the trim while the AP is engaged.  If it stays engaged, you have one trim servo.  If it kicks the AP off you have 2 servos.

I do find the Cirrus more difficult to trim, although in my short .3 flight after removing the rudder/aileron interconnect, it seems to trim a little better.

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, PT20J said:

I believe Cirrus (at least the one’s I flew) used the autopilot roll servo for aileron trim and it was too aggressive and easy to overshoot. I’m not sure if they did the same thing in pitch. I never had much trouble trimming in pitch, but roll was frustrating. 

Skip

Yeah. Same over-aggressive action in both directions, whatever the reason.

[carusoam]

Something to consider.... when going full up trim near the ground... using electric trim...

The trim system is going to be driven to the stop with an electric motor...

If something is going to jam the trim system... this is a good way for it to happen....

If you use the electric trim on short final... find a way to verify it hasn’t reached the end of its travel...

 

I’m likely to put my hand on the trim wheel... fearing aged mechanical systems...

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

Something to consider.... when going full up trim near the ground... using electric trim...
The trim system is going to be driven to the stop with an electric motor...
If something is going to jam the trim system... this is a good way for it to happen....
If you use the electric trim on short final... find a way to verify it hasn’t reached the end of its travel...

This is a a known problem, fixed by kit from Mooney, but it’s pricey...about 3 AMUs for kit and labor IIRC.