Starter On With Master. Safety Hazard.

[RLCarter]

5 minutes ago, ltdriser said:

Another update!

 

Went to the field. Turns out the starter does work woohoo! But she still won’t start. Boo!  I cannot engage the SOS and starter at same time. The starter will turn when I turn the key all the way to the right. As soon as I push in the key  for spark the starter stops. The two need to work together and it seems I can only get one or the other. 

Mine is key fully clockwise (SOS is the spring loaded portion) while holding in the spring loaded section you PUSH in to engage the starter

[ltdriser]

Mine is definitely spring for starter engagement and push for SOS. I’m assuming SOS is the sound I’m hearing.

I just double checked in the owners manual. Push to engage starter - spring for SOS.

That’s concerning.  

Edited April 18, 2021 by ltdriser

[RLCarter]

12 minutes ago, ltdriser said:

That is a little concerning as I just had the plane in for a new starter contractor and starter. Makes me question if there was a rewiring problem.  

this is from Don Maxwells website

The ignition switch has 6 positions. “Off” which grounds both magnetos and makes them both inoperative. “Right” allows the right magneto to operate and makes the left magneto inoperative. “Left” allows the left magneto to operate but makes the right magneto inoperative. “Both” allows both left & right magneto to operate.

The other two positions are “turning the key just to the right of the both” position activates the shower of sparks vibrator, and “pushing in” on the ignition key at this position activates the engine starter.

[N201MKTurbo]

50 minutes ago, ltdriser said:

Another update!

 

Went to the field. Turns out the starter does work woohoo! But she still won’t start. Boo!  I cannot engage the SOS and starter at same time. The starter will turn when I turn the key all the way to the right. As soon as I push in the key  for spark the starter stops. The two need to work together and it seems I can only get one or the other. 

Something is wired wrong. The SOS should be on with the key turned to the right. The starter should run when you push the key in. The SOS should keep running with the key pushed in.

[RLCarter]

4 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Something is wired wrong. The SOS should be on with the key turned to the right. The starter should run when you push the key in. The SOS should keep running with the key pushed in.

Agreed, you can even see the placard on the switch in his video 

[ltdriser]

I’m pretty well convinced that it’s a wiring issue.
 

However, I’m curious why with this particular set up I cannot run both the SOS and starter in parallel. You’d think that should still function as that’s how it would operate when wired normally. I’d just expect my inputs to activate the wrong things. I’m missing a bit of the “how it works” info. 
 

The mx manager and I are becoming quite acquainted. 

[RLCarter]

Yes they operate at the same time when the starter is engaged but it is 2 separate circuits, my guess is if they were on the same circuit the SOS would suffer from the draw of the starter

[steingar]

This is the fault of the mechanics, and not us.  This is MY airplane!  I tried to fly this weekend and got bubkiss.  The saddest thing is this is the squawk that sent the airplane to the shop in the first place, and it looks like the pilots have to do the diagnosis instead of the mechanics! Pretty pathetic in the Book of Steingar. 

Hopefully with us leading the way they'll get it fixed this time. Third try is always the charm, right?  If I had time I'd go to the maintenance hangar and watch while they start the thing.

[Andy95W]

I think it’s much more likely that your ignition switch failed internally rather than automatically blaming the mechanic.  Changing starters or relays is incredibly straightforward, take wires off then put wires back on.  Ignition switch failures are more common.  Unless the mx mgr or mechanic specifically says they messed with the switch wiring itself (not likely).

Rebuild kits are available. New switches are like $460.

[Guest]

First rule for pilot/owners, blame maintenance.

First rule for maintenance, blame the pilot/owners.

I’ve encountered pilots who don’t know how their plane works as often as maintainers who don’t know how planes work.

Clarence

[RLCarter]

@M20Doc some truth right there..... and if you ask both at the same time, no one knows what happened

[47U]

5 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

First rule for pilot/owners, blame maintenance.

First rule for maintenance, blame the pilot/owners.

Clarence

In a previous life I was a crew chief/flight mechanic on a C-135.  We were a pax hauler and based at Offutt AFB.  I cannot tell you how many times I had to ‘translate’ discrepancies that the pilots had written into the aircraft forms into mx-speak post mission at the debrief table.  

[cliffy]

At this point you'd be doing well to find the CORRECT wiring diagram for you switch/starter system and trace out the wiring to make damn sure everything is wired correctly 

It may have been wired backwards for some time and you didn't notice it because it started. 

Its just detail wire tracing    Get it right.

One of the hardest things to teach new airline pilots is how to write up discrepancies (and how to do it so they keep their butt out of the sling)

Many A&Ps have very limited wiring and electrical ability. I know a couple that won't go near wiring or electrical.

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, cliffy said:

At this point you'd be doing well to find the CORRECT wiring diagram for you switch/starter system and trace out the wiring to make damn sure everything is wired correctly 

It may have been wired backwards for some time and you didn't notice it because it started. 

Its just detail wire tracing    Get it right.

One of the hardest things to teach new airline pilots is how to write up discrepancies (and how to do it so they keep their butt out of the sling)

Many A&Ps have very limited wiring and electrical ability. I know a couple that won't go near wiring or electrical.

Yes, that last part is true for sure.  The ones that do go near it often don’t know how to troubleshoot, but are happy to throw parts at the problem.  I have a new alternator and VR and field wire and alternator wiring.  After none of that fixed my low voltage, I taight myself basic electrical and talked to a friend who does it for a living.  $2k worth of new parts/labor and the problem turned out to be a corroded connection that I found and fixed myself.

[ltdriser]

Final update, I hope. A&P did some investigation and found a misplaced wire when the relay was installed. They fixed and I am told everything is back to operating properly!

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, ltdriser said:

Final update, I hope. A&P did some investigation and found a misplaced wire when the relay was installed. They fixed and I am told everything is back to operating properly!

Thanks for the follow up!  Egads, that doesn't instill a lot of confidence in the shop, no? 

[RLCarter]

1 hour ago, ltdriser said:

Final update, I hope. A&P did some investigation and found a misplaced wire when the relay was installed. They fixed and I am told everything is back to operating properly!

So what did he find on your switch where the SOS & starter is reversed?

[ltdriser]

When we originally spoke it was sounding like a bad switch. I was adamant that they tone the switch out and confirm or reject it’s operation as i started to get the feeling we were about to throw parts at it. The switch toned out good which led them down the path of investigating the wiring and found there was a wire tied to 12vdc where it should have been to 0vdc. I didn’t ask much further as to how that would explain how the switch was acting. I suppose I could take a look at the circuit with what they explained then try to tie that back to what was occurring. It would be really cool to get some schematics with red marks but in my experience those are as rare as hen’s teeth. 

Edited April 29, 2021 by ltdriser

[RLCarter]

1 hour ago, ltdriser said:

When we originally spoke it was sounding like a bad switch............

Didn't you say that all the way to the right engages the starter and pushing in activates the Shower of Sparks? If this is the case the switch is wire incorrectly? That is just the opposite of the design, full right activates the SOS and pushing in engages the starter 

[ltdriser]

Correct, that is how it was acting when I took it in for repair. 

[carusoam]

That is one strange occurrence...

Sounds like somebody could have gotten injured by being in the wrong place at the wrong time...

Is it all back together properly now?

Best regards,

-a-

[ltdriser]

All back together and purring like a kitten.  Got a good XC in today, feels good to be back in the saddle after over a month of back and forth.