Your thoughts on this vs a 252?

[MATTS875]

I have been looking for an Ovation and have not had much luck. So I have been looking at bravos and 252's. What are your  thoughts on this? I know the engine is at TBO but not sure if it could be a good platform to build on. My only concern would be by the time I spend all that would be required I could probably buy a newer plane. I appreciate any advice. Thanks in advance

 

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/26618273/1989-mooney-m20m-bravo-piston-single-aircraft

[alextstone]

4 minutes ago, MATTS875 said:

I have been looking for an Ovation and have not had much luck. So I have been looking at bravos and 252's. What are your  thoughts on this? I know the engine is at TBO but not sure if it could be a good platform to build on. My only concern would be by the time I spend all that would be required I could probably buy a newer plane. I appreciate any advice. Thanks in advance

 

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/26618273/1989-mooney-m20m-bravo-piston-single-aircraft

That airplane had been on and off the market for about four years at least.  Each time it's relisted, the price goes down 10k.  It could finally be at the right place price wise but I would get a THOROUGH inspection

[Ron McBride]

N number registered, located in Canada. What, if any headaches to import?  At TBO, needs updated radios/panel. 
 

[MATTS875]

13 minutes ago, alextstone said:

That airplane had been on and off the market for about four years at least.  Each time it's relisted, the price goes down 10k.  It could finally be at the right place price wise but I would get a THOROUGH inspection

Appreciate the advice. I agree with the thorough inspection just was not sure what a good price on this plane would be. 

[MATTS875]

19 minutes ago, Ron McBride said:

N number registered, located in Canada. What, if any headaches to import?  At TBO, needs updated radios/panel. 
 

good point, that is something I will need to research

[kortopates]

30 minutes ago, Ron McBride said:

N number registered, located in Canada. What, if any headaches to import?  At TBO, needs updated radios/panel. 
 

Since its N registered it has no import issue - its 100% a US and maintained by US rules plane - just on an extended trip north!

Totally agree on the need for new panel! Engine probably has a some time left due to cylinder replacement but needs to be priced as fully runout.

Myself personally would be looking for a 252/Encore with dual alternators - but wait I fly one!

Edited January 16, 2021 by kortopates

[MATTS875]

1 minute ago, kortopates said:

Since its N registered it has no import issue - its 100% a US and maintained by US rules plane - just on an extended trip north!

Totally agree on the need for new panel! Engine probably has a some time left due to cylinder replacement but needs to be priced as fully runout.

i was thinking avionics at around 45k and engine possibly 40k  i might be off on the engine price, just a guess. So that brings up the point of negotiate a better price and do the upgrades or buy a newer one with everything already done. Not much out there to choose from now.

[jetdriven]

Bravo engines  are more like 60 grand firewall forward overhaul, so youre gonna be in this plane for two bills really soon. 

[kortopates]

Just now, MATTS875 said:

i was thinking avionics at around 45k and engine possibly 40k  i might be off on the engine price, just a guess. So that brings up the point of negotiate a better price and do the upgrades or buy a newer one with everything already done. Not much out there to choose from now.

no less than 65K for the engine - with R&R labor, new hoses, engine mounts, other accessories expect to see it grow by another $10-15K. 40K won't by much of a panel. There is currently no onboard wx nor traffic either. 

[KLRDMD]

2 minutes ago, MATTS875 said:

i was thinking avionics at around 45k and engine possibly 40k  i might be off on the engine price, just a guess. So that brings up the point of negotiate a better price and do the upgrades or buy a newer one with everything already done. Not much out there to choose from now.

You discussed 252s in the text of your post but linked to a Bravo. I believe Don Kaye @donkaye suggested $65k for an overhaul on that engine.

[MATTS875]

2 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

You discussed 252s in the text of your post but linked to a Bravo. I believe Don Kaye @donkaye suggested $65k for an overhaul on that engine.

ok. Thanks. At that price point on the engine I would rather just spend the upfront money on a newer plane.  Yes, I had also considered a nice 252 but here again not much selection to choose from

[KLRDMD]

Just now, MATTS875 said:

I had also considered a nice 252 but here again not much selection to choose from

I follow the market and would say the only 252 I would consider right now is this one but it isn't exactly what I would be looking for.

https://www.gmaxamericanaircraft.com/inventory/?/listing/for-sale/192974943/1986-mooney-m20k-252tse-piston-single-aircraft?dlr=1&dscompanyid=6946&settingscrmid=614667

In a 231, Jimmy has this which looks very nice and has most of the stuff a 252 does: https://www.gmaxamericanaircraft.com/inventory/?/listing/for-sale/199950131/1985-mooney-m20k-231se-piston-single-aircraft?dlr=1&dscompanyid=6946&settingscrmid=614667

[Sanoi]

Hello To All,

When looking for  Bravo Last year, this was one of the planes I reserch. The plane has an accident which may explains why it has not been able to sell at the asking price. 

Note that the following accident description: 

#NTSB2

Accident Occurred on: 1995-07-13 00:00:00 Narrative (ACCP): QcOn July 13, 1995, at 0727 hours Pacific daylight time, a Mooney M-20-M, N200CT, was substantially damaged during an aborted takeoff at Santa Monica, California. The pilot and passenger were not injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the departure, and an instrument flight plan was filed. The flight was originating as a personal cross-country flight destined for Abilene, Texas. The pilot stated that during the takeoff roll on runway 21, he realized that he had no airspeed indication. He chose to abort the takeoff at that point. At the west end of the runway, skid marks indicated that the airplane went sideways and the left landing gear collapsed. The left wing settled to the ground and fuel ignited from the wing fuel vent area. The brief fire burnt into the wing structure. The wing was also damaged from ground contact. The pilot had contracted for repairs to the vacuum/instrument system while at Santa Monica. According to a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspector, examination of the airspeed plumbing revealed that the plastic pitot tube was not connected at the airspeed indicator. Further examination of the tube failed to reveal a crush imprint from the "B" nut cone. The cone was found on the cockpit floor. An airspeed repair date of January 23, 1995, was affixed to the airspeed instrument case. The pilot stated that the M20 brakes are not adequate to stop a TLS model, near gross weight, down hill with a slight tailwind. He stated that the brakes should have been enlarged with the gross weight increase. He further stated that he now has the double puck brakes and that they are much more effective. Narrative (ACCF): DURING THE TAKEOFF ROLL THE PILOT REALIZED THAT HE HAD NO AIRSPEED INDICATION AND CHOSE TO ABORT. THE AIRCRAFT SKIDDED OFF THE END OF THE RUNWAY COLLAPSING A MAIN LANDING GEAR RESULTING IN A FIRE AT THE MID-WING FUEL VENT AREA. THE PILOT HAD CONTRACTED FOR INSTRUMENT REPAIRS IN ANOTHER AREA OF THE INSTRUMENT PANEL JUST PRIOR TO DEPARTURE. POSTACCIDENT EXAMINATION REVEALED THAT THE PITOT LINE TO THE AIRSPEED INDICATOR HAD BEEN IMPROPERLY INSTALLED AND WAS SUBSEQUENTLY PULLED OUT OF THE INSTRUMENT WHILE OTHER WORK WAS BEING PREFORMED NEAR IT. Narrative (CAUSE): the pilot's improper remedial action during an aborted takeoff due to an improperly installed pitot line to the airspeed indicator.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Jonás

[donkaye, MCFI]

1 hour ago, KLRDMD said:

You discussed 252s in the text of your post but linked to a Bravo. I believe Don Kaye @donkaye suggested $65k for an overhaul on that engine.

The $65K was for the Reman Engine only.  The R&R plus hose replacements, dual alternator overhaul, and other things would bring it all in to about $80,000.

[carusoam]

The last M20M TLS, not Bravo yet, that was sold at a deep discount was picked up by Lance...

We could ask Lance, but we know today’s market isn't tossing any discounts randomly for some reason...

Long Bodies are the latest rendition of the awesome Mooney heritage... everything got smoothed, and rounded, and even more aerodynamic than previous models...

OHs on six cylinder engines are surprisingly expensive compared to garden variety O360s...

OHs on TC’d engines aren’t surprisingly expensive... they are knowingly expensive... between the extra cylinders and engine lengths, to the turbos and exhaust system...

A fully run-out LB appears to be worth more than 100amu...  their avionics are still functional, just not up to date, may need a WAAS or ADSB...

Looks like chunks of 75amus at a time may be in order to bring up to the next level... engine/prop, and instrument panel...

For 100amu this is the cost of nice M20Js...

Nice Long Bodies are going to be in the 200amu and above category...

 

Go Long Body!

Best regards,

-a-

[MATTS875]

30 minutes ago, Jonás said:

Hello To All,

When looking for  Bravo Last year, this was one of the planes I reserch. The plane has an accident which may explains why it has not been able to sell at the asking price. 

Note that the following accident description: 

#NTSB2

Accident Occurred on: 1995-07-13 00:00:00 Narrative (ACCP): QcOn July 13, 1995, at 0727 hours Pacific daylight time, a Mooney M-20-M, N200CT, was substantially damaged during an aborted takeoff at Santa Monica, California. The pilot and passenger were not injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the departure, and an instrument flight plan was filed. The flight was originating as a personal cross-country flight destined for Abilene, Texas. The pilot stated that during the takeoff roll on runway 21, he realized that he had no airspeed indication. He chose to abort the takeoff at that point. At the west end of the runway, skid marks indicated that the airplane went sideways and the left landing gear collapsed. The left wing settled to the ground and fuel ignited from the wing fuel vent area. The brief fire burnt into the wing structure. The wing was also damaged from ground contact. The pilot had contracted for repairs to the vacuum/instrument system while at Santa Monica. According to a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspector, examination of the airspeed plumbing revealed that the plastic pitot tube was not connected at the airspeed indicator. Further examination of the tube failed to reveal a crush imprint from the "B" nut cone. The cone was found on the cockpit floor. An airspeed repair date of January 23, 1995, was affixed to the airspeed instrument case. The pilot stated that the M20 brakes are not adequate to stop a TLS model, near gross weight, down hill with a slight tailwind. He stated that the brakes should have been enlarged with the gross weight increase. He further stated that he now has the double puck brakes and that they are much more effective. Narrative (ACCF): DURING THE TAKEOFF ROLL THE PILOT REALIZED THAT HE HAD NO AIRSPEED INDICATION AND CHOSE TO ABORT. THE AIRCRAFT SKIDDED OFF THE END OF THE RUNWAY COLLAPSING A MAIN LANDING GEAR RESULTING IN A FIRE AT THE MID-WING FUEL VENT AREA. THE PILOT HAD CONTRACTED FOR INSTRUMENT REPAIRS IN ANOTHER AREA OF THE INSTRUMENT PANEL JUST PRIOR TO DEPARTURE. POSTACCIDENT EXAMINATION REVEALED THAT THE PITOT LINE TO THE AIRSPEED INDICATOR HAD BEEN IMPROPERLY INSTALLED AND WAS SUBSEQUENTLY PULLED OUT OF THE INSTRUMENT WHILE OTHER WORK WAS BEING PREFORMED NEAR IT. Narrative (CAUSE): the pilot's improper remedial action during an aborted takeoff due to an improperly installed pitot line to the airspeed indicator.

Wow. Great to know. I appreciate that. I guess I need to pray for patience and wait for the right one. It will come. Thanks again

[MATTS875]

4 minutes ago, carusoam said:

The last M20M TLS, not Bravo yet, that was sold at a deep discount was picked up by Lance...

We could ask Lance, but we know today’s market isn't tossing any discounts randomly for some reason...

Long Bodies are the latest rendition of the awesome Mooney heritage... everything got smoothed, and rounded, and even more aerodynamic than previous models...

OHs on six cylinder engines are surprisingly expensive compared to garden variety O360s...

OHs on TC’d engines aren’t surprisingly expensive... they are knowingly expensive... between the extra cylinders and engine lengths, to the turbos and exhaust system...

A fully run-out LB appears to be worth more than 100amu...  their avionics are still functional, just not up to date, may need a WAAS or ADSB...

Looks like chunks of 75amus at a time may be in order to bring up to the next level... engine/prop, and instrument panel...

For 100amu this is the cost of nice M20Js...

Nice Long Bodies are going to be in the 200amu and above category...

 

Go Long Body!

Best regards,

-a-

I agree. Looking back I probably should have kept my 98 201 but was hoping more would be on the market in the long body version 

[carusoam]

4 minutes ago, MATTS875 said:

I agree. Looking back I probably should have kept my 98 201 but was hoping more would be on the market in the long body version 

If you could see the future with any accuracy... we would want to have an MS Investor forum...  

Then it would be new LBs for all MSers...

-a-

[MATTS875]

12 minutes ago, carusoam said:

If you could see the future with any accuracy... we would want to have an MS Investor forum...  

Then it would be new LBs for all MSers...

-a-

You are exactly right. Couldn’t agree with you more

[Niko182]

The Bravo vs Ovation debate has to do a lot with how high you fly. Up until about 6 to 7ish thousand feet a 310hp ovation will out climb the bravo. After that, it will be the same for a short time and then the bravo will begin to catch up. Unless you're going to take advantage of flying above 12k feet, the bravo doesn't make sense. The Ovation will do everything the bravo does at those altitudes, while on lower fuel flows. Flying above that, the Bravo really begins to shine. I usually fly my Eagle/Ovation at 13 to 15 thousand feet. Above that and the climb starts to suffer a bit.

 

I for one wish the Bravo could have the hartzell 3 blade Acclaim top prop. That for one could give the Bravo a decent boost in performance.

[Steve Dawson]

2 hours ago, Jonás said:

Hello To All,

When looking for  Bravo Last year, this was one of the planes I reserch. The plane has an accident which may explains why it has not been able to sell at the asking price. 

Note that the following accident description: 

#NTSB2

Accident Occurred on: 1995-07-13 00:00:00 Narrative (ACCP): QcOn July 13, 1995, at 0727 hours Pacific daylight time, a Mooney M-20-M, N200CT, was substantially damaged during an aborted takeoff at Santa Monica, California. The pilot and passenger were not injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the departure, and an instrument flight plan was filed. The flight was originating as a personal cross-country flight destined for Abilene, Texas. The pilot stated that during the takeoff roll on runway 21, he realized that he had no airspeed indication. He chose to abort the takeoff at that point. At the west end of the runway, skid marks indicated that the airplane went sideways and the left landing gear collapsed. The left wing settled to the ground and fuel ignited from the wing fuel vent area. The brief fire burnt into the wing structure. The wing was also damaged from ground contact. The pilot had contracted for repairs to the vacuum/instrument system while at Santa Monica. According to a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspector, examination of the airspeed plumbing revealed that the plastic pitot tube was not connected at the airspeed indicator. Further examination of the tube failed to reveal a crush imprint from the "B" nut cone. The cone was found on the cockpit floor. An airspeed repair date of January 23, 1995, was affixed to the airspeed instrument case. The pilot stated that the M20 brakes are not adequate to stop a TLS model, near gross weight, down hill with a slight tailwind. He stated that the brakes should have been enlarged with the gross weight increase. He further stated that he now has the double puck brakes and that they are much more effective. Narrative (ACCF): DURING THE TAKEOFF ROLL THE PILOT REALIZED THAT HE HAD NO AIRSPEED INDICATION AND CHOSE TO ABORT. THE AIRCRAFT SKIDDED OFF THE END OF THE RUNWAY COLLAPSING A MAIN LANDING GEAR RESULTING IN A FIRE AT THE MID-WING FUEL VENT AREA. THE PILOT HAD CONTRACTED FOR INSTRUMENT REPAIRS IN ANOTHER AREA OF THE INSTRUMENT PANEL JUST PRIOR TO DEPARTURE. POSTACCIDENT EXAMINATION REVEALED THAT THE PITOT LINE TO THE AIRSPEED INDICATOR HAD BEEN IMPROPERLY INSTALLED AND WAS SUBSEQUENTLY PULLED OUT OF THE INSTRUMENT WHILE OTHER WORK WAS BEING PREFORMED NEAR IT. Narrative (CAUSE): the pilot's improper remedial action during an aborted takeoff due to an improperly installed pitot line to the airspeed indicator.

In fairness to the owner, that was 25 years ago and it's flown 1200 hours since. I flew the plane last week and it was stable and tight. All the avionics including the autopilot worked fine. My largest concern without doing a pre-buy is the cost of an engine overhaul and possibly a prop overhaul. I'll add that I know the mechanic and he's good and thorough and the owner was honest and answered all my questions. Plus the log books are complete with all the information. It's best to do a pre-buy no matter what you buy.

[Sanoi]

Okay Steve, i agree with you. It is an old accident and that the buyer should be taken into account when making a decision. I personally don't have any problem buying a plane that has been properly repaired, provided that the price is fair. It is my understanding that A new accident would lower the value of the plane by as much as 20%. Although it is less, I do not know what is the depreciation percentage for a  repair  that has been Proven for over 20 years. Nonetheless, I would have prefer if the seller had made that disclosure when I was inquiring at this plane over a year ago.

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, Jonás said:

Okay Steve, i agree with you. It is an old accident and that the buyer should be taken into account when making a decision. I personally don't have any problem buying a plane that has been properly repaired, provided that the price is fair. It is my understanding that A new accident would lower the value of the plane by as much as 20%. Although it is less, I do not know what is the depreciation percentage for a  repair  that has been Proven for over 20 years. Nonetheless, I would have prefer if the seller had made that disclosure when I was inquiring at this plane over a year ago.

After 20 years, if we can assume all the damaged parts were replaced with new parts and competently repaired, it becomes purely an emotional decision for buyers if there is any remaining discount. Many, once comfortable its been properly repaired, aren't going to have a problem with it but there will always be owners that won't buy an airplane with any damage history. There is no right or wrong answer only what other competing birds are on the market at the same time with lesser damage history. Problem is IMHO this Bravo is pretty much stock and not particularly seen a lot of love over the years. But the fact it should be priced as  with a runout engine will appeal to some that want get into a lower cost Bravo gambling they'll likely get a few years before the engine really needs an OH given the more recent cylinders - or not. 

[carusoam]

5 hours ago, Jonás said:

Okay Steve, i agree with you. It is an old accident and that the buyer should be taken into account when making a decision. I personally don't have any problem buying a plane that has been properly repaired, provided that the price is fair. It is my understanding that A new accident would lower the value of the plane by as much as 20%. Although it is less, I do not know what is the depreciation percentage for a  repair  that has been Proven for over 20 years. Nonetheless, I would have prefer if the seller had made that disclosure when I was inquiring at this plane over a year ago.

Disclosure is everything... 

Entrapment isn’t a very good sales technique...

The new buyer is going to find out, sooner or later, as he is spending the PPI dollars...

Or as a surprise... finding out after the sale...

A good sales organization knows how to handle enlightening the client, without causing damage to the sale, or reputation...

Looks like Jonás’ seller didn’t achieve this...

20 year old details aren’t as pressing as just repaired yesterday...  most often, the details are readily available in the log books...

On a 40 year old plane, this could take a lot of speed reading while putting an offer together...

As PIC... reading the logs is a big responsibility, before pushing the ‘buy now’ button...

Most things come out in conversation with the sales guy... when you ask... tell me about the damage history on this plane/car/house.... standard things for used stuff...  similar to what upgrades does it have...

Less valuable sales guys don’t know much about what they are selling... As buyers, these guys make your work even tougher...

Since not everybody buys used machines for a living, or can read more than 20 log book pages in a day... there are services for this too.

We have a couple of pro log book readers offering services around here...  Savvy and AGL Aviation..

We also have a very reputable sales organization around here... known for shooting straight.

Quality costs money... lack of quality costs even more... (Old QC saying) 

Let me know if I can introduce you to any of the good people referenced above...

Best regards,

-a-

[M016576]

7 hours ago, Niko182 said:

The Bravo vs Ovation debate has to do a lot with how high you fly. Up until about 6 to 7ish thousand feet a 310hp ovation will out climb the bravo. After that, it will be the same for a short time and then the bravo will begin to catch up. Unless you're going to take advantage of flying above 12k feet, the bravo doesn't make sense. The Ovation will do everything the bravo does at those altitudes, while on lower fuel flows. Flying above that, the Bravo really begins to shine. I usually fly my Eagle/Ovation at 13 to 15 thousand feet. Above that and the climb starts to suffer a bit.

 

I for one wish the Bravo could have the hartzell 3 blade Acclaim top prop. That for one could give the Bravo a decent boost in performance.

Absolutely correct.  I personally enjoy the long range, fuel economy, speed and useful load of a missile @Missile=Awesome @Seth. Although I’m sure if a bravo or acclaim owner were so inclined they could “pull it back” and get similar performance.  Albeit not with the same useful load as an Eagle or Missile.  I still think the 252 encore conversion that @Parker_Woodruff and @kortopates completed are the pinnacle of all things Mooney... perfect balance of power, speed, useful load and efficiency.  The hard part is finding one... they are like a unicorn.  I’ve heard of them, but they aren’t easily seen in the wild!!!

Edited January 17, 2021 by M016576