GFC500 AP update

[Baker Avionics]

Ok folks, I promised and here it is!

 

Garmin is pleased to announce it has received Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) STC for the GFC 500 autopilot in select Mooney M20 C, D, E models (1965 and later) and M20 F and G models, in addition to the Cessna 172RG series aircraft. Parts for both models can be ordered now, with shipping expected to begin by the end of December.

[Oscar Avalle]

Bravo!!!

[Niko182]

29 minutes ago, Oscar Avalle said:

Bravo!!!

you're thinking of the wrong airplane.

[carusoam]

He probably meant a Standing Ovation! 

-a-

[the_elkhartian]

I can’t wait to “C” this in my airplane!

No? Too far? Tough crowd...

[Davidv]

I have a feeling there will be some E-lated folks around here.

[Ragsf15e]

F-inally! A wise “Executive” decision by Garmin and the FAA!

Edited December 19, 2020 by Ragsf15e

[MoonFlyer68]

I had no idea this thread would be so punny........

[bob865]

This news comes with much Acclaim from the Mooney community.

[JimB]

I always found it a bit odd that Garmin choose to certify the newest Mooneys when the older ones are in need of a modern autopilot much more. There are also a lot more of them. But I am happy now. I placed my order yesterday. 

[ArtVandelay]

I always found it a bit odd that Garmin choose to certify the newest Mooneys when the older ones are in need of a modern autopilot much more. There are also a lot more of them. But I am happy now. I placed my order yesterday. 

Someone who owns a $200,000 plane is far more likely to spend $10,000 plus labor to upgrade the autopilot. As we’ve already seen in other threads, some owners of $50,000 planes feel it’s too much and are looking at Trutrak. So it’s simply a matter of math. Number of planes X expected sales %.

I’ve yet to hear a Ovation, Bravo, owner complaining about the price and few if any J/K owners.

[JimB]

50 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Someone who owns a $200,000 plane is far more likely to spend $10,000 plus labor to upgrade the autopilot. As we’ve already seen in other threads, some owners of $50,000 planes feel it’s too much and are looking at Trutrak. So it’s simply a matter of math. Number of planes X expected sales %.

I’ve yet to hear a Ovation, Bravo, owner complaining about the price and few if any J/K owners.

As an F owner, I'm not complaining either. Still the least expensive option for a modern autopilot for my aircraft, that's actually available. 

[carusoam]

On 12/22/2020 at 11:07 AM, ArtVandelay said:

I’ve yet to hear a Ovation, Bravo, owner complaining about the price and few if any J/K owners.

I can’t believe these things cost so much....  ( owner of an O1. )

 

The only thing that keeps these things coming... people willing to spend the dough....

The only thing that keeps these things nearly/almost affordable... competition...

Maybe Ovation owners complain more quietly... 

As an M20C pilot, I was afraid to complain... didn’t have an internet sounding board...

same pilot, same challenge, years later...

You should see my complaints on those other boards about health care costs... Go AARP!

 

Man these digital boxes do some impressive things!

What gets lost in the discussion of avionics being put in lower cost planes...

A fancy 20AMU navigator in a 30amu plane sounds expensive...

The navigator supports the multi million dollar pilot (cost of the human being) sitting in the 30amu plane...

the same navigator supports the same pilot in the 300amu plane the same way...

 

If you need a reason to update a lower cost plane with some expensive avionics... this would be it...

PP thoughts on upgrades.  They are not related to the value of the plane... more related to the value of the pilot...

Best regards,

-a-

[aviatoreb]

3 hours ago, carusoam said:

If you need a reason to update a lower cost plane with some expensive avionics... this would be it...

PP thoughts on upgrades.  They are not related to the value of the plane... more related to the value of the pilot...

Best regards,

-a-

Absolutely.

Another thing - a 30K C is still a used airplane that would cost 400-500k if priced competitively in today's market.  (Not saying that Mooney could actually build it for that price just my guesstimate fo what it would sell for as a new airplane).  So maintenance and upgrade is as if flying a 400k machine.

And one more thing - Garmin seems to have a crack business-economics team pricing their equipment meaning they seem to do a good job of finding the price point that sells the units at a brisk pace that is somewhat more expensive that some other options but not so expensive that they don't sell hand over fist.

I have an appointment at the beginning fo the year to install a pair of GI275's.  They are way too expensive.  They cost what they cost.  A little More expensive, installed, than an aspen pro, but not a lot, and with the upgrade path to the gfc500 that I may do if and when my kfc200 goes belly up.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, exM20K said:

What is the consensus on the AeroCruze as a drop-in replacement/upgrade for the legacy KFC 150 and 200 units?  The name is goofy, but the idea seems sound with much less labor.  If I still had my 231, I’d be looking at this seriously., even if it doesn’t play nicely with the garmin glass.

-Dan

 

I wouldn't touch a new king product with a ten foot pole.  King of the 1980s was king of avionics and they made best in class.  Now they are just a goofy company that makes faulty equipment and it takes a decade to transition from vapore ware to an obsolete product of someone else's product with their sticker on it.  E.g. the KI300 debacle that eventually those few who installed it and to remove it by AD.  And the King predatory behavior of trying to force out the third party maintenance companies like autopilot central.  Which they back tracked on.  My KFC200 is a good and steady and reliable unit.  I will continue with it for now because it is installed and I like it.  But I would not buy something new from them.

Oh - and their drop in replacement - all reports are that it is in fact not a drop in replacement, and a KFC230 plus a KI300 - with your old servos - would cost you pretty close to what a pair of G5's plus a GFC500 with new brushless digital servos, and a real company backing it up.  Somewhere on here someone posted the actual cost of installing a aerocruze 230 and it was running ~15k installed not including a KI300 or whatever you are using to drive attitude.

...seems I have a strong opinion.

I wish that king had been a real company and certified a real drop in replacement,. meaning digital autopilot and digital servos to replace current equipments and it really was drop in.  But besides that, they have just become a goofy and bizarre company I would not invest in.

[exM20K]

3 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I wouldn't touch a new king product with a ten foot pole.  King of the 1980s was king of avionics and they made best in class.  Now they are just a goofy company that makes faulty equipment and it takes a decade to transition from vapored ware to an obsolete product of someone else's product with their sticker on it.  E.g. the KI300 debacle that eventually those few who installed it and to remove it by AD.  And the King predatory behavior of trying to force out the third party maintenance companies like autopilot central.  Which they back tracked on.  My KFC200 is a good and steady and reliable unit.  I will continue with it for now because it is installed and I like it.  But I would not buy something new from them.

Oh - and their drop in replacement - all reports are that it is in fact not a drop in replacement, and a KFC230 plus a KI300 - with your old servos - would cost you pretty close to what a pair of G5's plus a GFC500 with new brushless digital servos, and a real company backing it up.  Somewhere on here someone posted the actual cost of installing a aerocruze 230 and it was running ~15k installed not including a KI300 or whatever you are using to drive attitude.

...seems I have a strong opinion.

I wish that king had been a real company and certified a real drop in replacement,. meaning digital autopilot and digital servos to replace current equipments and it really was drop in.  But besides that, they have just become a goofy and bizarre company I would not invest in.

Lol. I tried to delete my post after finding another thread on this topic,  but you’re too fast! That’s a pity that Bendix/King is such a mess. My Silver Crown KFC 200 panel, complete with KNS80 Rnav always performed.

 

Viable competition for Garmin would make flying cheaper.

-Dan

Edited December 25, 2020 by exM20K

[aviatoreb]

Just now, exM20K said:

Lol. I tried to delete my post after finding another thread on this topic,  it you’re too fast! That’s a pity that Bendix/King is such a mess. My Silver Crown KFC 200 panel, complete with KNS80 Rnav always performed.

 

Viable competition for Garmin would make flying cheaper.

-Dan

Yeah - I wish King were the excellent company they used to be.  But its just bizarre what they have become.  And yes it would also force Garmin to be more competitive price wise.  I assume Garmin is charging what they think the market will bear and if they were forced to they could sell their stuff much less expensively.

[StevenL757]

On 12/25/2020 at 8:35 AM, aviatoreb said:

I have an appointment at the beginning fo the year to install a pair of GI275's.  They are way too expensive.  They cost what they cost.  A little More expensive, installed, than an aspen pro, but not a lot, and with the upgrade path to the gfc500 that I may do if and when my kfc200 goes belly up.

If you knew how much stuff they crammed into that GI275, your opinion might change...as it did mine when i thought similarly.  Over the last several months, I’ve had a complete change of heart...from wanting to go down the BK 230 route (to avoid having to pull my ESI500 with all the options, among other reasons) to the GFC500 with a GI275.  I must’ve gotten a really great deal, as my 275 was - installed - around $4100’ish, along with a pretty generous trade on my L-3 ESI500.  Installation started Wednesday this week.

My shop has done a few dozen 275 installs already, and has been so impressed with its capabilities, they’ve dubbed it “G500TXi in a tube”.  Only had a chance to fly behind a couple of them installed in a Saratoga recently.  I found a little bit of a learning curve with them...push-and-hold menus selection, etc. and some other functions that take some getting used to, but I hope that once your install is done, you reach the conclusion that it’s money well-spent and they meet your expectations, as I’m sure they will mine.

[StevenL757]

On 12/17/2020 at 2:36 PM, Baker Avionics said:

Ok folks, I promised and here it is!

 

Garmin is pleased to announce it has received Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) STC for the GFC 500 autopilot in select Mooney M20 C, D, E models (1965 and later) and M20 F and G models, in addition to the Cessna 172RG series aircraft. Parts for both models can be ordered now, with shipping expected to begin by the end of December.

Greg, may I suggest updating your website to show that you are a Garmin dealer?

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, StevenL757 said:

If you knew how much stuff they crammed into that GI275, your opinion might change...as it did mine when i thought similarly.  Over the last several months, I’ve had a complete change of heart...from wanting to go down the BK 230 route (to avoid having to pull my ESI500 with all the options, among other reasons) to the GFC500 with a GI275.  I must’ve gotten a really great deal, as my 275 was - installed - around $4100’ish, along with a pretty generous trade on my L-3 ESI500.  Installation started Wednesday this week.

My shop has done a few dozen 275 installs already, and has been so impressed with its capabilities, they’ve dubbed it “G500TXi in a tube”.  Only had a chance to fly behind a couple of them installed in a Saratoga recently.  I found a little bit of a learning curve with them...push-and-hold menus selection, etc. and some other functions that take some getting used to, but I hope that once your install is done, you reach the conclusion that it’s money well-spent and they meet your expectations, as I’’m sure they will mine.

When I say it is too expensive...keep in mind I have already put a deposit and install starts in just over a week.  I am saying too expensive relative to other consumer products.  It is worth it to me, and so well played Garmin, they know how much people like me will pay given the market realities of what is available.  I want the most durable, modern solutions.  That's Garmin for this item.

I am very much looking forward to flying behind it.

Your 4.1k stated price plus selling your l3, sounds like roughly 10k.  For a single unit that is on part with the spread of quotes I got.  I am getting a pair.  Attitude plus hsi as attitude revisionary capability.

Expensive for two little round gauges installed on the order of - the cost of a like new used Subaru car I got for the boys about 2 years ago.

[Aerodon]

And now for an 'Encore'

I have the original sales brochures for my 1980 Seneca.  A KFC200 A/P with HSI and flight director was a $9,880 option, or $31,202 in todays dollars.  Thats a production line 'exchange / installed price' over and above the standard attitude and directional gyro's.  If you had to take your plane to an avionics shop for a retrofit, it would probably be 50% more?

I consider the KFC200 to be the peak of 'electro mechanical' devises in GA, maybe the KFC150 is a little better.  So now a GFC500 with 2xGI-275's is fairly equivalent.  It is the modern day KFC200 with the addition of GPS, air data and battery backup.  I suspect you could get these installed for somewhere between $20 and 30K.

My take is that Garmin have done a good job of packaging a lot of functionality and reliability at a reasonable price.  I want them to sell 10's of thousands of these so that in 20 years there will still be factory service, parts availability and overall support.

I'm done with second and third tier suppliers.  I will never willingly buy another BK or S-Tec product, in fact I am going to celebrate when BK finally throw in the towel.

Aerodon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[StevenL757]

4 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Your 4.1k stated price plus selling your l3, sounds like roughly 10k.  For a single unit that is on part with the spread of quotes I got.  I am getting a pair.  Attitude plus hsi as attitude revisionary capability.

Actually, the whole install...

• GFC500, 4 servos
• New pilot panel + screening/lettering + circuit breaker panel
• GI275
• Secondary GTP59 and GMU11
• Convert existing Eaton push-button switch for reversionary function
• Remove GAD43E + KFC150 system + ESI500
• Shipping, labor, misc. parts and all trade-ins

...came out to $22,430.  4 weeks to complete, with time factored in for holidays.

[aviatoreb]

42 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

Actually, the whole install...

• GFC500, 4 servos
• New pilot panel + screening/lettering + circuit breaker panel
• GI275
• Secondary GTP59 and GMU11
• Convert existing Eaton push-button switch for reversionary function
• Remove GAD43E + KFC150 system + ESI500
• Shipping, labor, misc. parts and all trade-ins

...came out to $22,430.  4 weeks to complete, with time factored in for holidays.

Wow - that is fantastic.  And that does not include trade in?

So that shop - what would it cost for a 3 servo GFC500 and two G5 - so that would be a comparison apples to apples vs dropping in an aerocruze 230 plus KI300 and keeping the old mechanical 525 HSI and old servos.  I bet its almost the same.

As I said I am just doing 2 GI275's ...for now.

[StevenL757]

11 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Wow - that is fantastic.  And that does not include trade in?

So that shop - what would it cost for a 3 servo GFC500 and two G5 - so that would be a comparison apples to apples vs dropping in an aerocruze 230 plus KI300 and keeping the old mechanical 525 HSI and old servos.  I bet its almost the same.

Yeah, I'd say it's pretty close.  For comparison - in April of this year, they quoted me $14k installed for the KFC230, without trade-in of any of my KFC150 components, and I retain my L-3 backup ADI.  Given I have the G500TXi, 650Xi, GAD43E, and 750Xi, the install would've been fairly straightforward according to them.

The $22.5k for the GFC500 does include trade-ins...summary below.  I was off by $70 above...

 

Trade-Ins

[bob865]

Thought I would share what I just got from my Avi shop for my e model. This is the hardware price they quoted me for just the autopilot. I already have the g5s and a gad-29b installed. 

4 Servo: Pitch / Roll / Yaw / Pitch Trim $13,595.00

3 Servo: Pitch / Roll / Yaw $11,095.00

3 Servo: Pitch / Roll / Pitch Trim $10,895.00

2 Servo: Pitch / Roll $8,395.00