M20E Stall and leading edge question

[cliffy]

IIRC BW and others would come back from a test flight and, say if the right wing broke first, they would raise the one on the left wing to "trip" the stall of that wing earlier and bring it in reasonable timing of the right wing stall timing.

I also seem to remember that the strips were taped on until their final position was determined. 

I'm going way back in memory now so I could be mistaken. 

[carusoam]

I believe Bill Wheat said it himself...

Just like Cliffy described...

@MooneyMitch may know...  

I got to talk with Bill wheat on the phone twice... Mitch got capture his whole essence on video...

Bets regards,

-a-

[MooneyMitch]

  On 12/9/2020 at 4:48 AM, carusoam said:

I believe Bill Wheat said it himself...

Just like Cliffy described...

@MooneyMitch may know...  

I got to talk with Bill wheat on the phone twice... Mitch got capture his whole essence on video...

Bets regards,

-a-

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Such an incredible thrill to have Bill share so much Mooney history with us during filming.  An experience I’ll cherish forevermore!  Lucky me.  Thank you Mr. Terrible. 

[MooneyMitch]

  On 12/9/2020 at 4:40 AM, cliffy said:

IIRC BW and others would come back from a test flight and, say if the right wing broke first, they would raise the one on the left wing to "trip" the stall of that wing earlier and bring it in reasonable timing of the right wing stall timing.

I also seem to remember that the strips were taped on until their final position was determined. 

I'm going way back in memory now so I could be mistaken. 

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If my memory serves me correctly from interviewing Bill Wheat, you are correct.

An additional fact with the wood wing during initial testing.  During stalls, Bill said things that happened were not pleasant.  That’s when they would carve out balsa wood wedges, placing them in the forward wing root area in order to tame the violence....... several sizes and configurations were tested till successful.  

[takair]

  On 12/9/2020 at 4:33 AM, Ragsf15e said:

I have been doing this flying thing for ~35 years, but I remember being afraid of stalls too.  I also remember being about 5 and sitting in the back of a C-172, terrified, while my dad practiced for his PPL with his CFI.  Since then, I flew a lot of high performance airplanes upside down, vertical up/down, and twice backwards (one time was on purpose).  The only way to get comfortable with some of this stuff is learning and practicing.  Keep doing it (safely) and you’ll eventually be comfortable with it, but remember the feeling because your non pilot passengers probably feel like you once did.

Now, my Mooney buffets plenty that the stall is definitely not a surprise.  Accelerated stalls can be forced right into the break though if you pull real quick through the buffet and that’s more exciting.  When coordinated, mine rolls relatively slowly left in general and is easily controlled/recovered by releasing the back pressure.

I have purposely stalled at close to full power in a climb with my feet on the floor (no right rudder) because I wanted to know what to expect if I really screwed up.  It did quickly roll toward a 60-90 degree left bank spin entry but recovered very quickly with slightly forward elevator (and idle power and right rudder, but the elevator broke the stall).

I have heard that the stall characteristics are very sensitive to the exact position of the leading edge stall strip on the wings, and those are removable/moveable.  If the airplane is painted maybe they are put back close?  Moved in the last 50 years?  Supposedly, Bill W. And the other test pilots would test fly them and then come back with a recommended adjustment for that stall strip.  Anyone know if that’s true?  And how would we adjust them now if your aircraft stall was “unconventional”?

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Check out Bob Kramer’s stall article. https://themooneyflyer.com/issues/2013-MarTMF.pdf

[Nukemzzz]

  On 12/9/2020 at 4:33 AM, Ragsf15e said:

I have been doing this flying thing for ~35 years, but I remember being afraid of stalls too.  I also remember being about 5 and sitting in the back of a C-172, terrified, while my dad practiced for his PPL with his CFI.  Since then, I flew a lot of high performance airplanes upside down, vertical up/down, and twice backwards (one time was on purpose).  The only way to get comfortable with some of this stuff is learning and practicing.  Keep doing it (safely) and you’ll eventually be comfortable with it, but remember the feeling because your non pilot passengers probably feel like you once did.

Now, my Mooney buffets plenty that the stall is definitely not a surprise.  Accelerated stalls can be forced right into the break though if you pull real quick through the buffet and that’s more exciting.  When coordinated, mine rolls relatively slowly left in general and is easily controlled/recovered by releasing the back pressure.

I have purposely stalled at close to full power in a climb with my feet on the floor (no right rudder) because I wanted to know what to expect if I really screwed up.  It did quickly roll toward a 60-90 degree left bank spin entry but recovered very quickly with slightly forward elevator (and idle power and right rudder, but the elevator broke the stall).

I have heard that the stall characteristics are very sensitive to the exact position of the leading edge stall strip on the wings, and those are removable/moveable.  If the airplane is painted maybe they are put back close?  Moved in the last 50 years?  Supposedly, Bill W. And the other test pilots would test fly them and then come back with a recommended adjustment for that stall strip.  Anyone know if that’s true?  And how would we adjust them now if your aircraft stall was “unconventional”?

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This is good. Further confirmation that how mine behaves is normal and it’s not trying to kill me. Your comment that it breaks the stall with elevator, even when winged over, is exactly what my CFI is trying to tell me. 
 

When I was a kid in the back of a C150 and C175 “stalls with daddy” was my favorite thing, followed by turbulence. Lol

[Nukemzzz]

  On 12/9/2020 at 11:40 AM, takair said:

Check out Bob Kramer’s stall article. https://themooneyflyer.com/issues/2013-MarTMF.pdf

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This is brilliant.  Thanks for sharing.

[0TreeLemur]

  On 12/9/2020 at 3:30 PM, Nukemzzz said:

This is brilliant.  Thanks for sharing.

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Ditto.  I had not read about the phenomenon of a "secondary stall".   Being forewarned, I'll try and stay away from that part of the envelope!   Doesn't sound like much fun.

[brndiar]

 Here's a video that covers the  "Stall Topic" and is worth to see (cca 25 min).

Lg,m

 

[carusoam]

The laminar flow wing has crummy stall behavior compared to many other wings...  But...

If the Mooney is rigged properly, and the pilot is aware... it is possible to get the plane to stall nicely, straight forwards...

So... even a nicely rigged Mooney can drop a wing if the ball isn’t centered...

And... you can see what happens if you load the Mooney up and do stall testing with three of your closest friends... there is a video around here of that... not exactly a spin, but enough loss of control, that the friends probably aren’t very close any more... 

Remember... when raising the nose during slow flight.. the ball isn’t going to want stay centered on its own... lots of fine rudder controlled works wonders...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

  On 12/10/2020 at 6:29 AM, carusoam said:

The laminar flow wing has crummy stall behavior compared to many other wings...  But...
If the Mooney is rigged properly, and the pilot is aware... it is possible to get the plane to stall nicely, straight forwards...
So... even a nicely rigged Mooney can drop a wing if the ball isn’t centered...
And... you can see what happens if you load the Mooney up and do stall testing with three of your closest friends... there is a video around here of that... not exactly a spin, but enough loss of control, that the friends probably aren’t very close any more... 
Remember... when raising the nose during slow flight.. the ball isn’t going to want stay centered on its own... lots of fine rudder controlled works wonders...
PP thoughts only, not a CFI...
Best regards,
-a-

The problem with stall testing is it’s unrealistic. In real life:
If you’re making the mistake of stalling the plane unintentionally, chances are the ball won’t be centered.
The pilot won’t be aware and is probably distracted by something or someone else.
You won’t be gently entering the stall.
There won’t be a CFI sitting in the right seat.

[cliffy]

The problem as I see it is  -  Stall/Spin/Smoking hole

A stall in and of itself at altitude is not a problem even if it rolls into the start of a spin

High altitude stalls don't kill anyone

The problem invariably is not enough altitude to recover from an UNEXPECTED stall at low altitude. 

Just go to any repository of aircraft accidents for GA and read about Stall/Spin

You never see an accident from a stall/spin coming down from high altitude. 

What it all boils down to is that the pilot is distracted from his airspeed AND the decline in airspeed is so fast that there is little to no time for recognition of an impending stall/spin

Many if not most happen as the bank angle is increased (rapid decline in airspeed to bank angle change caused by roll rate) trying to make a runway at low speed for what ever reason.

Airspeed is life! Take your eyes off of it at your own peril !

My first lessons have always been to focus on airspeed -airspeed -airspeed

It has to be ingrained from the first hour of training  Doesn't matter whether it is a J-3 or a Boeing. 

Two examples- the Mooney on a VFR go around a few years ago and Asiana at San Francisco

Neither one should have happened

[Ragsf15e]

  On 12/9/2020 at 11:40 AM, takair said:

Check out Bob Kramer’s stall article. https://themooneyflyer.com/issues/2013-MarTMF.pdf

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Thanks, that was a good read.

[takair]

  On 12/9/2020 at 5:54 PM, 0TreeLemur said:

Ditto.  I had not read about the phenomenon of a "secondary stall".   Being forewarned, I'll try and stay away from that part of the envelope!   Doesn't sound like much fun.

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During my CFI check ride, the check airman chose secondary stall as one of the maneuvers.  I knew the steps, but had not done them in my plane before the check ride.  The first stall was predictable....as expected.  Pulling into the secondary was more exciting.....with a sharp drop of the right wing.  I remember the examiner start to reach up for the yoke, but I recovered quickly....nose down, left rudder.  He asked what happened and I described the purpose of demonstrating the secondary stall was so the student would know that they didn’t want to experience it.  I suspect I didn’t have the ball quite centered, but I know it wasn’t far off center either.  Part of the difficulty in secondary stall is that you are moving from nose up, to nose down, to nose up again...so rudder activity is important too.   I do know that a Cessna 172 tolerates this much better....in fact it is really difficult to induce spins...even trying to horse into it.  Anyway, even though it is exciting, if you respond quickly and appropriately it recovers quickly with relatively minimal loss of altitude.

[Nukemzzz]

  On 12/10/2020 at 4:20 PM, takair said:

During my CFI check ride, the check airman chose secondary stall as one of the maneuvers.  I knew the steps, but had not done them in my plane before the check ride.  The first stall was predictable....as expected.  Pulling into the secondary was more exciting.....with a sharp drop of the right wing.  I remember the examiner start to reach up for the yoke, but I recovered quickly....nose down, left rudder.  He asked what happened and I described the purpose of demonstrating the secondary stall was so the student would know that they didn’t want to experience it.  I suspect I didn’t have the ball quite centered, but I know it wasn’t far off center either.  Part of the difficulty in secondary stall is that you are moving from nose up, to nose down, to nose up again...so rudder activity is important too.   I do know that a Cessna 172 tolerates this much better....in fact it is really difficult to induce spins...even trying to horse into it.  Anyway, even though it is exciting, if you respond quickly and appropriately it recovers quickly with relatively minimal loss of altitude.

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Thinking back, when my instructor has scared me on this, it may have been a secondary.  It buffets, tries to drop but he doesn't let it and pulls it back up until it really goes.

Maybe I just need to top off my life insurance, settle some affairs, climb to 6000ft AGL, and have him prove to me that we can't crash doing any kind of stall in this thing so I get used to it.  lol

While training some in a C172 he asked me if I wanted to do some spins so I could see that even they are safe after we verified good W&B and I was like "yeah....no thanks".  Maybe I should have went for it in that spin approved ride. 

[takair]

  On 12/10/2020 at 4:29 PM, Nukemzzz said:

Thinking back, when my instructor has scared me on this, it may have been a secondary.  It buffets, tries to drop but he doesn't let it and pulls it back up until it really goes.

Maybe I just need to top off my life insurance, settle some affairs, and have him prove to me that we can't crash doing any kind of stall in this thing so I get used to it.  lol

While training some in a C172 he asked me if I wanted to do some spins so I could see that even they are safe after we verified good W&B and I was like "yeah....no thanks".  Maybe I should have went for it in that spin approved ride. 

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Spin training is worth doing.  A 172 basically recovers on its own, but still teaches you things.  The real value of stall and spin training is ultimately know how to avoid them when near the ground.  It teaches you how vulnerable each airframe is to inattention.  Trust your instructor and understand and ask “why”.  Altitude is your friend in these maneuvers and part of it is to teach you how much room you need to recover.  It is why our level of concentration goes up, the closer we are to the ground....we have to work harder to stay away from things that can hurt us.

[cliffy]

Way back when on my Commercial check ride all the inspector wanted to do was spins in my Cessna 140  

We did 4 and he said I passed. 

Also WAAYY back when some old timers used spins to get under and undercast layer if they knew there was a decent ceiling below.

In airplanes without gyros (DG and AH) letting down is a problem but their take was  "when I break out I know what condition I'm in and I just recover from a normal spin" Some flew the mail in DH-4s at night in weather that we wouldn't even think of going in. Some of the weather that WWI pilots flew in was 50 feet ceiling and 1/4 mile vis and they did it day after day back then. Get the book "No Parachute" for some eye opening reading. 

[tmo]

  On 12/10/2020 at 2:53 PM, cliffy said:

High altitude stalls don't kill anyone

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Wasn't AF447 basically a stall from FL350 all the way down?

[cliffy]

OK How far do you want to stretch it?

Yes they has their heads up and locked but that is an anomaly in the big picture. We're talking about small airplanes here and the vast majority of stall/spin accidents in GA airplanes. . 

 

[takair]

  On 12/10/2020 at 4:46 PM, cliffy said:

Also WAAYY back when some old timers used spins to get under and undercast layer if they knew there was a decent ceiling below.

In airplanes without gyros (DG and AH) letting down is a problem but their take was  "when I break out I know what condition I'm in and I just recover from a normal spin"

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Think I had read that as well.  Scary and brilliant at the same time.   Would be bad if you didn’t know the ceiling and it was only 200...

[EricJ]

  On 12/10/2020 at 4:29 PM, Nukemzzz said:

While training some in a C172 he asked me if I wanted to do some spins so I could see that even they are safe after we verified good W&B and I was like "yeah....no thanks".  Maybe I should have went for it in that spin approved ride. 

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I highly recommend spin training, and if you can find a C150 or C152 to do them in it's downright fun, or at least it was to me.    I used to go out and do them on my own a lot just for fun.

 

[Nukemzzz]

  On 12/10/2020 at 4:46 PM, cliffy said:

Way back when on my Commercial check ride all the inspector wanted to do was spins in my Cessna 140  

We did 4 and he said I passed. 

Also WAAYY back when some old timers used spins to get under and undercast layer if they knew there was a decent ceiling below.

In airplanes without gyros (DG and AH) letting down is a problem but their take was  "when I break out I know what condition I'm in and I just recover from a normal spin" Some flew the mail in DH-4s at night in weather that we wouldn't even think of going in. Some of the weather that WWI pilots flew in was 50 feet ceiling and 1/4 mile vis and they did it day after day back then. Get the book "No Parachute" for some eye opening reading. 

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Well, I guess if the plane is under it's own control then there is no need for IFR instruments through the layer!

[0TreeLemur]

  On 12/10/2020 at 4:41 PM, takair said:

Spin training is worth doing.  A 172 basically recovers on its own, but still teaches you things.  The real value of stall and spin training is ultimately know how to avoid them when near the ground.  It teaches you how vulnerable each airframe is to inattention.  Trust your instructor and understand and ask “why”.  Altitude is your friend in these maneuvers and part of it is to teach you how much room you need to recover.  It is why our level of concentration goes up, the closer we are to the ground....we have to work harder to stay away from things that can hurt us.

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I did spin training in a C-152 way back after finishing my ppl in '81.   I most distinctly remember the sound of the control surfaces banging around like a sheet metal barn in a gusty wind storm.  So it's been almost 30 years since I recovered from a spin.  I recall that in that docile bird it took about 700-800 ft to recover from one.   I bet a M20C would require at least twice that amount of altitude.   Anybody alive here ever spin a Mooney?

[Niko182]

  On 12/11/2020 at 12:11 AM, 0TreeLemur said:

I did spin training in a C-152 way back after finishing my ppl in '81.   I most distinctly remember the sound of the control surfaces banging around like a sheet metal barn in a gusty wind storm.  So it's been almost 30 years since I recovered from a spin.  I recall that in that docile bird it took about 700-800 ft to recover from one.   I bet a M20C would require at least twice that amount of altitude.   Anybody alive here ever spin a Mooney?

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The POH says you need about 2000ft. Theres a story @donkayeposted about getting into a spin.

[takair]

  On 12/11/2020 at 12:11 AM, 0TreeLemur said:

I did spin training in a C-152 way back after finishing my ppl in '81.   I most distinctly remember the sound of the control surfaces banging around like a sheet metal barn in a gusty wind storm.  So it's been almost 30 years since I recovered from a spin.  I recall that in that docile bird it took about 700-800 ft to recover from one.   I bet a M20C would require at least twice that amount of altitude.   Anybody alive here ever spin a Mooney?

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Jose May have the record number when he certified his long range tanks.  He’s got some good stories about it..... maybe he is around @Gagarin